The instability thing

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SwissBlade

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So as the season ended in 2005, we'd just lost our last home game to Millwall, warnock was being followed by a tv crew filming him for a fly on the wall sky documentary about him and us. It was the final part in the documentary which eventually ended with United missing on the top 6, albeit in the championship. 'Destination premiership' was again hitting the brakes and the locals weren't happy. Warnock having stabilised the rot in several years had little to spend, his methods not always everyone's cup of tea. Yet he survived the summer which followed and he took us up the next year. It's not been good since.

Warnock had his doubters, he generally had a good season followed by a poor rebuilding season. He was the last manager to stay longer than two seasons. Two full seasons. Blackwell, Wilson and Clough all reached and lost out in the play off lottery, Wilson made it almost a full season after his loss, Blackwell managed the summer and Clough just weeks. Warnock somehow, after two semis and a play off final in the same season, kept his job.

Going into the 10th anniversary season since our last promotion season, we find ourselves managerless again, sure we've got the summer to bring in a new manager, let him sort out the squad and push us into another promotion season or so we'll be told. We've been told this approximately every other season since Warnock left and we look exitedly ahead to a promotion push! The consistency of the inconsistent United, sacking managers when we've not reached that goal.

So are we setting our targets too high? Certainly not, big club, big resources, big expectation and big names coming in. We should be the first side that the bookies shorten the odds on over the summer for promotion. It's not arrogance, we'd expect nothing less than to be in the running. It doesn't work like that though.

4-4-2, 4-5-1, short passes, youth, experience, long ball, managers with their arms folded, animated managers... We've tried the lot. So we're told that we need to take a different direction, get the new manager in, that's the way we'll do it. But we've tried everything in the last ten years. We lost Derek Dooley not long after that promotion to the Premier League and since then we've lost the 'footballing man' at the club, the voice of reason, the man in the managers corner.

What have we learnt in 10 or even 20 years? We've learnt that the two managers that took us to the top division did so with time. This is not a cry for Bassett or Warnock, far from it, but giving time.

Right now I've lost faith in Phipps et al. They're no doubt desperate for success and profits from United, but like the McCabe era before, they find simple solutions in paying off and binning managers. Whilst I like Phipps, Baki and the prince, the focus seems to have been pleasing the empty vessels on Facebook and Twitter, perhaps I'm being harsh.

So if we've learnt one thing in ten years, perhaps it's that we need stability. The next manager whomever it may be, must firstly be that right choice, it's too late for Clough, but we need to set out the club ethos, have a plan and stick too it. But most importantly - get some fucking stability into the club and stick with the manager. It's the one thing we've not tried in ten years, so please, please let's give it a go.

You never know it might work....
 

Good post, but Blackwell lasted another full season after the playoff defeat, and only got sacked 2 games into the one after.
 
So as the season ended in 2005, we'd just lost our last home game to Millwall, warnock was being followed by a tv crew filming him for a fly on the wall sky documentary about him and us. It was the final part in the documentary which eventually ended with United missing on the top 6, albeit in the championship. 'Destination premiership' was again hitting the brakes and the locals weren't happy. Warnock having stabilised the rot in several years had little to spend, his methods not always everyone's cup of tea. Yet he survived the summer which followed and he took us up the next year. It's not been good since.

Warnock had his doubters, he generally had a good season followed by a poor rebuilding season. He was the last manager to stay longer than two seasons. Two full seasons. Blackwell, Wilson and Clough all reached and lost out in the play off lottery, Wilson made it almost a full season after his loss, Blackwell managed the summer and Clough just weeks. Warnock somehow, after two semis and a play off final in the same season, kept his job.

Going into the 10th anniversary season since our last promotion season, we find ourselves managerless again, sure we've got the summer to bring in a new manager, let him sort out the squad and push us into another promotion season or so we'll be told. We've been told this approximately every other season since Warnock left and we look exitedly ahead to a promotion push! The consistency of the inconsistent United, sacking managers when we've not reached that goal.

So are we setting our targets too high? Certainly not, big club, big resources, big expectation and big names coming in. We should be the first side that the bookies shorten the odds on over the summer for promotion. It's not arrogance, we'd expect nothing less than to be in the running. It doesn't work like that though.

4-4-2, 4-5-1, short passes, youth, experience, long ball, managers with their arms folded, animated managers... We've tried the lot. So we're told that we need to take a different direction, get the new manager in, that's the way we'll do it. But we've tried everything in the last ten years. We lost Derek Dooley not long after that promotion to the Premier League and since then we've lost the 'footballing man' at the club, the voice of reason, the man in the managers corner.

What have we learnt in 10 or even 20 years? We've learnt that the two managers that took us to the top division did so with time. This is not a cry for Bassett or Warnock, far from it, but giving time.

Right now I've lost faith in Phipps et al. They're no doubt desperate for success and profits from United, but like the McCabe era before, they find simple solutions in paying off and binning managers. Whilst I like Phipps, Baki and the prince, the focus seems to have been pleasing the empty vessels on Facebook and Twitter, perhaps I'm being harsh.

So if we've learnt one thing in ten years, perhaps it's that we need stability. The next manager whomever it may be, must firstly be that right choice, it's too late for Clough, but we need to set out the club ethos, have a plan and stick too it. But most importantly - get some fucking stability into the club and stick with the manager. It's the one thing we've not tried in ten years, so please, please let's give it a go.

You never know it might work....

Great post SB, but I guess I'll be saying something similar to another thread... We gave NC the benefit of the doubt last season, me as much as any, after poor result followed disappointing performance. Saving it for the Play-Offs I suggested and we know what happened. So whilst I agree (again) with you about stability, I also agree with Alco's point that we need the right person in place and by crikey I hope our board get it right this time.
 
focus seems to have been pleasing the empty vessels on Facebook and Twitter, perhaps I'm being harsh.

Strongly disagree with this. Phipps's interactions with the fans on fb should not be seen as uncritical - if that's the right word.

He goes on fb etc and gets untold grief, "advice", all sorts but there are also supportive and reasonable voices, including some critical-but-not-bonkers ones. He manages the whole thing extremely well imo.

His CV is very impressive and I can't imagine him riding a wave of populism at all.

Whatever decisions he takes will be very carefully considered.
 
Stability isn't always good and change isn't always bad. If you're not delivering and in danger of letting the wheels fall off or standing still(stability), then transformation is required. It was needed last week.

However, If the board doesn't get this decision right, then they won't have learnt anything. For years when we change our manager, we as fans never get the most logical choice. We have had to endure them employing Wilson, Blackwell, Weir, Robson and Clough since Warnock left and not one of them we would have picked, except for probably Clough. Robinson was the popular choice of the fans though.

Let us stop paying off managers and pay that extra bit of money to bring in the guy with the right credentials, in this case either Adkins or Robinson fit the bill. Let the Prince and Kevin put in £1m extra each and just go for it. I don't want to hear about how we couldn't bid for Coady at £375k because we brought in Wallace as his replacement, thus didn't need anyone else yet brought in Coutts. We have wasted money on shit by trying to do this on the cheap, yet has turned out to be more expensive. Alcock, Butler, McEvereley, Ben Davies, Coutts, Higdon, Turner and Freeman must be about 20k+ per week in wages. Now someone else has to come in and sort it out.

Bring in a man who makes the players feel 6 foot tall (yes I know), can put his arm round some of the youngsters and give them the freedom to express themselves. Seriously, minus the list above we still have more than enough quality, so pay top dollar and get someone to deliver.

Jim, if you're listening. The cheap option is no longer acceptable and as the other benefactors to the club, please listen to us!
 
Is it just me that can't be arsed to read that? Nevertheless, i'm sure it will be a decent post.
 
Whoever we appoint, please let it be someone who extols the virtues of attractive skillful play, moving the ball along the floor (not up and under), good movement off the ball, keeping possession, etc.

A big ask, but it's the way forward! UTB
 
So as the season ended in 2005, we'd just lost our last home game to Millwall, warnock was being followed by a tv crew filming him for a fly on the wall sky documentary about him and us. It was the final part in the documentary which eventually ended with United missing on the top 6, albeit in the championship. 'Destination premiership' was again hitting the brakes and the locals weren't happy. Warnock having stabilised the rot in several years had little to spend, his methods not always everyone's cup of tea. Yet he survived the summer which followed and he took us up the next year. It's not been good since.

Warnock had his doubters, he generally had a good season followed by a poor rebuilding season. He was the last manager to stay longer than two seasons. Two full seasons. Blackwell, Wilson and Clough all reached and lost out in the play off lottery, Wilson made it almost a full season after his loss, Blackwell managed the summer and Clough just weeks. Warnock somehow, after two semis and a play off final in the same season, kept his job.

Going into the 10th anniversary season since our last promotion season, we find ourselves managerless again, sure we've got the summer to bring in a new manager, let him sort out the squad and push us into another promotion season or so we'll be told. We've been told this approximately every other season since Warnock left and we look exitedly ahead to a promotion push! The consistency of the inconsistent United, sacking managers when we've not reached that goal.

So are we setting our targets too high? Certainly not, big club, big resources, big expectation and big names coming in. We should be the first side that the bookies shorten the odds on over the summer for promotion. It's not arrogance, we'd expect nothing less than to be in the running. It doesn't work like that though.

4-4-2, 4-5-1, short passes, youth, experience, long ball, managers with their arms folded, animated managers... We've tried the lot. So we're told that we need to take a different direction, get the new manager in, that's the way we'll do it. But we've tried everything in the last ten years. We lost Derek Dooley not long after that promotion to the Premier League and since then we've lost the 'footballing man' at the club, the voice of reason, the man in the managers corner.

What have we learnt in 10 or even 20 years? We've learnt that the two managers that took us to the top division did so with time. This is not a cry for Bassett or Warnock, far from it, but giving time.

Right now I've lost faith in Phipps et al. They're no doubt desperate for success and profits from United, but like the McCabe era before, they find simple solutions in paying off and binning managers. Whilst I like Phipps, Baki and the prince, the focus seems to have been pleasing the empty vessels on Facebook and Twitter, perhaps I'm being harsh.

So if we've learnt one thing in ten years, perhaps it's that we need stability. The next manager whomever it may be, must firstly be that right choice, it's too late for Clough, but we need to set out the club ethos, have a plan and stick too it. But most importantly - get some fucking stability into the club and stick with the manager. It's the one thing we've not tried in ten years, so please, please let's give it a go.

You never know it might work....

Over all a great post but one real issue is what if you end up sticking with the wrong person. This, for me, is why this next appointment is so important.
 
Over all a great post but one real issue is what if you end up sticking with the wrong person. This, for me, is why this next appointment is so important.

Yeah don't disagree with that, like others have said above, change isn't always bad, I'm not saying that we push on regardless with a crap manager. However, if the Warnock era was now, would he have had that last season before promotion? Very unlikely in my opinion and others would argue that Warnock was never the right man.

I personally thought the last appointment was the right one, long term.
 

Yeah don't disagree with that, like others have said above, change isn't always bad, I'm not saying that we push on regardless with a crap manager. However, if the Warnock era was now, would he have had that last season before promotion? Very unlikely in my opinion and others would argue that Warnock was never the right man.

I personally thought the last appointment was the right one, long term.

Warnock took his time to get promoted from the Champ to the Prem. This really is a different story all together.It's like people comparing win % of Danny Wilson etc when they have only managed us in the 3rd against say Warnock.
 
Yeah don't disagree with that, like others have said above, change isn't always bad, I'm not saying that we push on regardless with a crap manager. However, if the Warnock era was now, would he have had that last season before promotion? Very unlikely in my opinion and others would argue that Warnock was never the right man.

I personally thought the last appointment was the right one, long term.

Me too. The fact that it hasn't worked out - when (I think) it looked like, from their pov, it was going to - hopefully means they set the bar very high this time around.

We'll see.
 
Good OP. We all know that stability brings success, but no one wants to wait two years, let alone six or seven.

Imagine if we'd appointed a long term manager after Warnock and stuck with him through good seasons and bad. Would we be in our current predicament now?
 
Warnock took his time to get promoted from the Champ to the Prem. This really is a different story all together.It's like people comparing win % of Danny Wilson etc when they have only managed us in the 3rd against say Warnock.
Yeah I'm with you there and I'm not looking at like for like comparisons. However, perhaps the circumstances in that 2004/ 05 season are similar and I'm really only making the comparison to say - are we not better giving a man time, because when we have done, we eventually get results.

Again, we have to pick the right Man. that man has to fit into the long term and short term plan.
 
Good OP. We all know that stability brings success, but no one wants to wait two years, let alone six or seven.

Imagine if we'd appointed a long term manager after Warnock and stuck with him through good seasons and bad. Would we be in our current predicament now?
I think that's what the powers at be tried. Robson was not the right man though. Never
 
Warnock's best finish in his first three seasons was 10th, but in the Championship. We can't afford too many more seasons in the third tier and with the right manager and the right investment there's no reason why we should. Hopefully next season we can wipe the floor with this shitty little league like we should have done 4 years ago.
 
Agree about Robson but any of the other managers could have been a success over 5 or 6 years - including Weir and Adams.
 
The type of manager we need is the total opposite to NC, one that will not ostracise a player for a fall out that puts us in a position where we a lacking in crucial areas, we need a manager who will lead a team and give them a kick up the back side when needed.
 
So as the season ended in 2005, we'd just lost our last home game to Millwall, warnock was being followed by a tv crew filming him for a fly on the wall sky documentary about him and us. It was the final part in the documentary which eventually ended with United missing on the top 6, albeit in the championship. 'Destination premiership' was again hitting the brakes and the locals weren't happy. Warnock having stabilised the rot in several years had little to spend, his methods not always everyone's cup of tea. Yet he survived the summer which followed and he took us up the next year. It's not been good since.

Warnock had his doubters, he generally had a good season followed by a poor rebuilding season. He was the last manager to stay longer than two seasons. Two full seasons. Blackwell, Wilson and Clough all reached and lost out in the play off lottery, Wilson made it almost a full season after his loss, Blackwell managed the summer and Clough just weeks. Warnock somehow, after two semis and a play off final in the same season, kept his job.

Going into the 10th anniversary season since our last promotion season, we find ourselves managerless again, sure we've got the summer to bring in a new manager, let him sort out the squad and push us into another promotion season or so we'll be told. We've been told this approximately every other season since Warnock left and we look exitedly ahead to a promotion push! The consistency of the inconsistent United, sacking managers when we've not reached that goal.

So are we setting our targets too high? Certainly not, big club, big resources, big expectation and big names coming in. We should be the first side that the bookies shorten the odds on over the summer for promotion. It's not arrogance, we'd expect nothing less than to be in the running. It doesn't work like that though.

4-4-2, 4-5-1, short passes, youth, experience, long ball, managers with their arms folded, animated managers... We've tried the lot. So we're told that we need to take a different direction, get the new manager in, that's the way we'll do it. But we've tried everything in the last ten years. We lost Derek Dooley not long after that promotion to the Premier League and since then we've lost the 'footballing man' at the club, the voice of reason, the man in the managers corner.

What have we learnt in 10 or even 20 years? We've learnt that the two managers that took us to the top division did so with time. This is not a cry for Bassett or Warnock, far from it, but giving time.

Right now I've lost faith in Phipps et al. They're no doubt desperate for success and profits from United, but like the McCabe era before, they find simple solutions in paying off and binning managers. Whilst I like Phipps, Baki and the prince, the focus seems to have been pleasing the empty vessels on Facebook and Twitter, perhaps I'm being harsh.

So if we've learnt one thing in ten years, perhaps it's that we need stability. The next manager whomever it may be, must firstly be that right choice, it's too late for Clough, but we need to set out the club ethos, have a plan and stick too it. But most importantly - get some fucking stability into the club and stick with the manager. It's the one thing we've not tried in ten years, so please, please let's give it a go.

You never know it might work....

Swiss , agree with what you say .

McCabe , board and the rest of us , must think in the back of our minds - If Norwich , Watford , Bournemouth , Southampton , Swansea can all do , it why cant we .

McCabe and board have not gone out , over the years , to drop us in the shit intentionally . Indeed the decision to sack Clough and his back room staff , has cost us both financially and put us back to square one.

Do we know actually what we are looking for in a manager , or does the agenda change from one interview to another . The first criteria has got to be to get us out of league 1. Are our interview skills and techniques good enough to think out of the box , and ensure we also bring in other factors as stability , man management etc.

We have gone forward in the past with recommendations , without delving too much into the actual managers ethos and personality , with the important factor of , does the manager actually fit the club ,and vis versa.

The items that we need to ensure we get for the club and from the manager is

Building a foundation

Patience

Rebuilding the team , but not with wholesale changes

Set high standards both on and off the pitch

Tactics

Management control of players

Preparation

Being able to adapt and good delegation.

All this criteria actually fits with Clough ,( with the exception of tactics and being able to adapt ) , but unfortunately we are in the wrong league for him to have succeeded. Clough had taken on his lessons learnt from this season , but has not been able to put them into practice with getting the sack. The Clough mistakes , i am sure will be high on the agenda for asking the new candidates , the question.

The board have to decide what they are looking for , and stick with it , or we will be having the same debate , at the end of next season.

Us fans are not patient , so do we run inparallel with the clubs knee jerk reactions , as we ask for one thing , but want another.

The main aim for all , is just get out of league 1 , which is strangling us all.

UTB
 
All spot on. But first you have to employ a decent manager. Then give him time.

UTB

I think the last one we employed was good enough to get us out of this division given another season. Whoever takes over now is unlikely to get us up at the first time of asking anyhow (not been done for us in 30+ years). We can argue long into the night about who what where why and when but the fact is some stability and not sacking at stupid times of the season (3 games in, 5 games to go sort of thing) would be a start. Sacking someone with the foresight to have been looking at other options would be another good idea.

Thing for me is we keep sacking managers but none of them have actually made us any better. You can keep blaming the manager or you could look at the person employing them who is the one making the biggest mistake.
 

I think the last one we employed was good enough to get us out of this division given another season. Whoever takes over now is unlikely to get us up at the first time of asking anyhow (not been done for us in 30+ years). We can argue long into the night about who what where why and when but the fact is some stability and not sacking at stupid times of the season (3 games in, 5 games to go sort of thing) would be a start. Sacking someone with the foresight to have been looking at other options would be another good idea.

Thing for me is we keep sacking managers but none of them have actually made us any better. You can keep blaming the manager or you could look at the person employing them who is the one making the biggest mistake.

Do any of our previous managers go on to better things or at a higher level . The only one is Warnock who is a bit like marmite .

Were we have , and still are , going wrong , is the application , interview and appointment process . That is the route cause of the problem , and the effect being poor manger choice , equaled to poor success.

UTB
 

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