Take note Mr Clough

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So in summary, the key to guaranteed success is:

- play a formation that works, rather than one that doesn't
- buy players to fit that formation, rather than ones that don't
- sign experience, rather than inexperience
- score goals from all areas of the pitch, rather than few areas of the pitch
- don't concede too many, rather than letting in a lot
- use loans wisely, rather than unwisely
- get players to believe, rather than not believe

What a genius that man Cotterill is.
 
LoughboroBlade said:
So in summary, the key to guaranteed success is:

- play a formation that works, rather than one that doesn't
- buy players to fit that formation, rather than ones that don't
- sign experience, rather than inexperience
- score goals from all areas of the pitch, rather than few areas of the pitch
- don't concede too many, rather than letting in a lot
- use loans wisely, rather than unwisely
- get players to believe, rather than not believe

What a genius that man Cotterill is.
Click to expand...
Clough makes him look like Stephen Hawking at the moment.
 
If we got the signings we wanted in the summer i.e Brayford, O'grady, Coady + a decent center half we would have got auto Clough's tactics and ideas work ... with the right players.

Granted some of this was cloughs fault for not adapting to what we were able to get a little more, i have had my doubts this season but in Clough i trust.
 
AnonymousBlade1995 said:
If we got the signings we wanted in the summer i.e Brayford, O'grady, Coady + a decent center half we would have got auto Clough's tactics and ideas work ... with the right players.

Granted some of this was cloughs fault for not adapting to what we were able to get a little more, i have had my doubts this season but in Clough i trust.
Click to expand...

If the only formula for Clough being successful this season relied on us signing players that nobody else in this league was remotely capable of signing, then this is a major concern. He can only use the excuse of 'not getting the targets we wanted' once in my view, as you'd expect him to learn from those mistakes this summer.

An advantage Cotterill had other than in targeting realistic signings was reduced expectations. Like NC, he came into a club doing poorly, but unlike NC:
- the club was 1 year out of the championship, rather than 3. A good number of that Championship squad was still there - he was therefore coming into a team with better tools
- while they improved last year, they didn't go on the sort of great run we had. Expectations, and the resultant pressure, were higher for Clough
- Cotterill had no major exodus of players key to his squad last summer. As two of Clough's had been borrowed and not then signed, plus one more unplanned exit, we effectively needed to replace 3 key players last summer. It's absolutely Clough's responsibility to have done that, which he did not do. But that's a significant challenge Cotterill didn't have to face

Put simply, I don't think it's straightforward to compare - Clough in my mind had a far tougher task to make the top two than Cotterill. That's not to excuse his failings this season - many of which have been of his own making.
 
AnonymousBlade1995 said:
If we got the signings we wanted in the summer i.e Brayford, O'grady, Coady + a decent center half we would have got auto Clough's tactics and ideas work ... with the right players.

Granted some of this was cloughs fault for not adapting to what we were able to get a little more, i have had my doubts this season but in Clough i trust.
Click to expand...
At least someone trusts him....i wouldn't trust him to boil a kettle
 
I think most fans know where Clough has gone wrong this season but we still have the playoffs to contend with, most will forget any of his mishaps if we are to be promoted. If we are to go up then this thread might look a bit daft in roughly a months time. No i don't need any more ifs:)

Cotterill has done a good job and he's done what he set out to do but he does have his limitations just like our Nigel seems to have, now unfortunately Cotterills' limitations seem higher than Cloughys', that's the concern i have for the future of our club.

Get us up Cloughy and that will be a big burden off his own shoulders of which i'm pretty sure he's felt the pressure more than any other time in his management career and maybe Clough can then kick on and finish what he started, i have to admit, i do have my reservations.
 
davidpinder said:
This is how you do it, I hadn't realised he took over with them in 23rd.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/32512953
Click to expand...
1d395213891ff2aa2ad9bc85ac0a83688efacca50363f546e988ee2d5013be4e.jpg
 
LoughboroBlade said:
If the only formula for Clough being successful this season relied on us signing players that nobody else in this league was remotely capable of signing, then this is a major concern. He can only use the excuse of 'not getting the targets we wanted' once in my view, as you'd expect him to learn from those mistakes this summer.
Click to expand...

Agree. I don't know how much more he can use COG as an excuse. Any sign of a backup plan if we didn't get him? And if we had got him, I doubt - given our pedestrian, non-penetrating style of play - he'd have made much of a difference anyway. We (finally) did get Brayford and - unless he's got a get-out clause - I can see him being and influential player for years to come. Coady? An utter fuck up.
 
grafikhaus said:
Agree. I don't know how much more he can use COG as an excuse. Any sign of a backup plan if we didn't get him? And if we had got him, I doubt - given our pedestrian, non-penetrating style of play - he'd have made much of a difference anyway. We (finally) did get Brayford and - unless he's got a get-out clause - I can see him being and influential player for years to come. Coady? An utter fuck up.
Click to expand...

Why was Coady an utter fuck up? He has been a regular for a Championship club this season so he clearly wasn't a realistic signing for a League One club.
 
I seem to recall Cotteril being mentioned a few times during recent manager searches and many saying they didn't want him. Presumably they were holding out for Klopp.
 

wizadry said:
I think most fans know where Clough has gone wrong this season but we still have the playoffs to contend with, most will forget any of his mishaps if we are to be promoted. If we are to go up then this thread might look a bit daft in roughly a months time. No i don't need any more ifs:)

Cotterill has done a good job and he's done what he set out to do but he does have his limitations just like our Nigel seems to have, now unfortunately Cotterills' limitations seem higher than Cloughys', that's the concern i have for the future of our club.

Get us up Cloughy and that will be a big burden off his own shoulders of which i'm pretty sure he's felt the pressure more than any other time in his management career and maybe Clough can then kick on and finish what he started, i have to admit, i do have my reservations.
Click to expand...

Good post Wiz. The fans , Board , know were we have had our shortfalls this season , and i would like to think Clough knows it as well. The postmortem will be held if we do not make it this season.

What has made it worst is the inconsistent , inept performances against teams , that any club going for promotion , should have got a result against . We failed in this respect .

The big question is that perhaps the scouting system or the process of transfers has not worked . It could be down simply that we haven't the finance to move this club forward , although we pad big money for Brayford , to act as our talisman / motivator , but this as yet to work.

A major overall of the back room staff may be required , but under Clough i cannot see it happening . We have just been slow and amateurish on player recruitment , buying at the wrong time , and paid the price ,in not getting automatic promotion.

The board may well think , if we need to rebuild the squad in the summer , are they better off , doing it under a new manager than Clough , who has not succeeded with automatic this season.

It all comes down to expectations of the fans and club , and what his contractural remit was.

Not all is lost , as we are in the playoffs , and it is wrong to make out Cotterill as this brilliant tactical genius . Robinson , Grayson , Cooper , and Cook are all in the same boat as Clough . The difference is we demand and expect instant success and life especially football does not work like that.

If Clough does not realises his mistakes and shortfalls this season , we are in for a rocky ride , next season whichever league we are in.

Not bothered about Bristol City , its what we do today and in the 3 playoff games , which make or break Clough and the club.

Can Clough and the players deal with the pressure , i am becoming to have my doubts.

UTB
 
It'll never happen here, why, we got an investor who's pumped money into the club but unfortunately he left the lunatics in charge of the asylum. The McCabes heart is in the right place but have proved they can waste their own money and snatch defeat from the jaws of success on several occasions so they are more than capable of cockin it up with someone else's money.
 
One item missing, get an owner who is wealthy beyond belief who can chuck spare change in to get the playing staff required.

We aren't in the same league financially as the Bristol City's, Bournemouths, Brentfords of this world. Sad but true

We'll have to do it more gradually. Let's see what May brings for us.
 
LoughboroBlade said:
So in summary, the key to guaranteed success is:

- play a formation that works, rather than one that doesn't
- buy players to fit that formation, rather than ones that don't
- sign experience, rather than inexperience
- score goals from all areas of the pitch, rather than few areas of the pitch
- don't concede too many, rather than letting in a lot
- use loans wisely, rather than unwisely
- get players to believe, rather than not believe

What a genius that man Cotterill is.
Click to expand...

And what a bad job clough had done to date
 
Don't see a queue of premiership chairmen taking any interest in cotterill. May have found a formula to get Bristol City out of this near la ligaesque league, but doubt he can sustain it in the higher echelons. Sour grapes, fuck yes.UTB FTO.
 
LoughboroBlade said:
If the only formula for Clough being successful this season relied on us signing players that nobody else in this league was remotely capable of signing, then this is a major concern. He can only use the excuse of 'not getting the targets we wanted' once in my view, as you'd expect him to learn from those mistakes this summer.

An advantage Cotterill had other than in targeting realistic signings was reduced expectations. Like NC, he came into a club doing poorly, but unlike NC:
- the club was 1 year out of the championship, rather than 3. A good number of that Championship squad was still there - he was therefore coming into a team with better tools
- while they improved last year, they didn't go on the sort of great run we had. Expectations, and the resultant pressure, were higher for Clough
- Cotterill had no major exodus of players key to his squad last summer. As two of Clough's had been borrowed and not then signed, plus one more unplanned exit, we effectively needed to replace 3 key players last summer. It's absolutely Clough's responsibility to have done that, which he did not do. But that's a significant challenge Cotterill didn't have to face

Put simply, I don't think it's straightforward to compare - Clough in my mind had a far tougher task to make the top two than Cotterill. That's not to excuse his failings this season - many of which have been of his own making.
Click to expand...

UnitedBlade said:
We aren't in the same league financially as the Bristol City's, Sad but true
Click to expand...
Sad but 100% untrue.

Bristol City when relegated from the Championship they had the smallest turnover of any side in the division of barely £8million
Completely out of kilter with their wage bill was which stood at a staggering 190% of turnover the worst in the league. Nearly 3 times their turnover!!!
They had gambled on signing massively high earning players who were meant to perform.
They lost the gamble big time, with a record annual losses of £14.4million and racked up debts of £41million.


When Clough arrived Bristol were next to bottom. Cotterill actually started from a monumental worse position, by any measure ( e.g.players inherited, financially, gates, income, wages) than Clough, having to slash wages and move players on.

Their sugar daddy Steve Lansdown, had committed them to a ground sharing with rugby; a Desso pitch and ground redevelopment, so little money for the team.

Cotterill in winter 2013 signed 5 players, got rid of 6, with 5 short term loans.
Summer 2014 saw another major rebuilding with 7 in, 10 leaving including top scorer Sam Balodock. No major signings, nearly all the players free.

Only 2 players from the relegation squad of 28 players are now with the club

No vast spending, and a massive reduction in wages.

This is the true scale of rebuilding that Cotterill has achieved under huge financial constraints, at the second biggest club in the league.
 
Davie Blade said:
Sad but 100% untrue.

Bristol City when relegated from the Championship they had the smallest turnover of any side in the division of barely £8million
Completely out of kilter with their wage bill was which stood at a staggering 190% of turnover the worst in the league. Nearly 3 times their turnover!!!
They had gambled on signing massively high earning players who were meant to perform.
They lost the gamble big time, with a record annual losses of £14.4million and racked up debts of £41million.


When Clough arrived Bristol were next to bottom. Cotterill actually started from a monumental worse position, by any measure ( e.g.players inherited, financially, gates, income, wages) than Clough, having to slash wages and move players on.

Their sugar daddy Steve Lansdown, had committed them to a ground sharing with rugby; a Desso pitch and ground redevelopment, so little money for the team.

Cotterill in winter 2013 signed 5 players, got rid of 6, with 5 short term loans.
Summer 2014 saw another major rebuilding with 7 in, 10 leaving including top scorer Sam Balodock. No major signings, nearly all the players free.

Only 2 players from the relegation squad of 28 players are now with the club

No vast spending, and a massive reduction in wages.

This is the true scale of rebuilding that Cotterill has achieved under huge financial constraints, at the second biggest club in the league.
Click to expand...
Yes they have a lower turnover but I'm referring to the huge amount of money Lansdown is ploughing in. Last season their wage bill was about 15% higher than United's (yes I know we can't get to the wage bill of players). We won't know for a while but I'd be amazed if they hadn't significantly increased wages this year. They absolutely knew this was a good year to invest.

Lansdownis a billionaire who added £500m alone to his wealth in 2013. With all the other infrastructure investment, we are not in their league unless the Prince has access to more money we don't know about.
 
UnitedBlade said:
Yes they have a lower turnover but I'm referring to the huge amount of money Lansdown is ploughing in. Last season their wage bill was about 15% higher than United's (yes I know we can't get to the wage bill of players). We won't know for a while but I'd be amazed if they hadn't significantly increased wages this year. They absolutely knew this was a good year to invest.

Lansdownis a billionaire who added £500m alone to his wealth in 2013. With all the other infrastructure investment, we are not in their league unless the Prince has access to more money we don't know about.
Click to expand...

Heard of the the FFP?
How can a club with a lower turnover than ours, possibly have a higher wage bill when they are limited to 60%?
These are monitored every month
 
Davie Blade said:
Heard of the the FFP?
How can a club with a lower turnover than ours, possibly have a higher wage bill when they are limited to 60%?
These are monitored every month
Click to expand...

I'm not pretending to know much about this but it looks like cash injections from owners count as turnover. (Which incidentally seems to make FFP a bit of a farce in Divisions 3 and 4 doesn't it?)

http://www.financialfairplay.co.uk/scmp.php

However the Football League use a is broader definition of Turnover. Crucially, the FL Turnover figure includes donations from the owners to the club and injections of equity. Loans from club owners are understandably not included in the Turnover figure as these would result in growing club debts. up club debts. In League 1 and League 2, a wealthy owner can therefore fund the club spending in a way that is not permitted in other divisions. Manchester City and Leicester for example seem set for punishment for their excessive losses (from UEFA and the Championship respectively) despite the fact that the owners have injected hard cash into the club to finance the spending.
 
Davie Blade said:
Heard of the the FFP?
How can a club with a lower turnover than ours, possibly have a higher wage bill when they are limited to 60%?
These are monitored every month
Click to expand...
Yes, look it up it's called "equity investment" - owners can put in as much as they like as long as they aren't loans. How on earth do you think Bournemouth and Brentford in particular assembled their promotion squads with their turnovers ?

Have a look at their accounts for the seasons they gained promotion from League 1.
 
UnitedBlade said:
Yes they have a lower turnover but I'm referring to the huge amount of money Lansdown is ploughing in. Last season their wage bill was about 15% higher than United's (yes I know we can't get to the wage bill of players). We won't know for a while but I'd be amazed if they hadn't significantly increased wages this year. They absolutely knew this was a good year to invest.

Lansdownis a billionaire who added £500m alone to his wealth in 2013. With all the other infrastructure investment, we are not in their league unless the Prince has access to more money we don't know about.
Click to expand...
Both McCabe and Landsdown have put considerable sums into their respective clubs, ( and the Prince according to Phipps)
I don't think you can say we aren't in the same league financially.

My points over of what Cotterill has achieved vis a vie Clough, is set upon the context of him having to get rid of loads of players on long term high wage contracts.
I think the fact that currently only 2 players are still there from the relegation squad of 28 proves that point.The over hang of those contracts will undoubtedly have pushed up their wage bill above ours, as they pay players off. The actual 'working' wage bill isn't likely to be above ours So again I don;t agree 'that we aren't in their league financially'.

As you say we won't know what they've invested this year, so that counts for nothing.
But even if it did, NC has had the bonus additional revenue from Cup runs to spend.
Again we hold all the advantages this season above BC whose ground is being redeveloped, thereby limiting their capacity.
 
Davie Blade said:
Both McCabe and Landsdown have put considerable sums into their respective clubs, ( and the Prince according to Phipps)
I don't think you can say we aren't in the same league financially.

My points over of what Cotterill has achieved vis a vie Clough, is set upon the context of him having to get rid of loads of players on long term high wage contracts.
I think the fact that currently only 2 players are still there from the relegation squad of 28 proves that point.The over hang of those contracts will undoubtedly have pushed up their wage bill above ours, as they pay players off. The actual 'working' wage bill isn't likely to be above ours So again I don;t agree 'that we aren't in their league financially'.

As you say we won't know what they've invested this year, so that counts for nothing.
But even if it did, NC has had the bonus additional revenue from Cup runs to spend.
Again we hold all the advantages this season above BC whose ground is being redeveloped, thereby limiting their capacity.
Click to expand...
While Cotterill was signing players to assemble a squad which got automatic promotion, Clough was busy chasing after unrealistic signings (COG), players in key positions who he then fell out with (Butler), crocks (Wallace) and shite (Higdon et al). He then served up a turgid brand of football which appears to have pissed off many and still scraped a playoff place. If the guy wasn't so clueless it would be amusing.
 
Lord Bos of Eckington. said:
Good post Wiz. The fans , Board , know were we have had our shortfalls this season , and i would like to think Clough knows it as well. The postmortem will be held if we do not make it this season.

What has made it worst is the inconsistent , inept performances against teams , that any club going for promotion , should have got a result against . We failed in this respect .

The big question is that perhaps the scouting system or the process of transfers has not worked . It could be down simply that we haven't the finance to move this club forward , although we pad big money for Brayford , to act as our talisman / motivator , but this as yet to work.

A major overall of the back room staff may be required , but under Clough i cannot see it happening . We have just been slow and amateurish on player recruitment , buying at the wrong time , and paid the price ,in not getting automatic promotion.

The board may well think , if we need to rebuild the squad in the summer , are they better off , doing it under a new manager than Clough , who has not succeeded with automatic this season.

It all comes down to expectations of the fans and club , and what his contractural remit was.

Not all is lost , as we are in the playoffs , and it is wrong to make out Cotterill as this brilliant tactical genius . Robinson , Grayson , Cooper , and Cook are all in the same boat as Clough . The difference is we demand and expect instant success and life especially football does not work like that.

If Clough does not realises his mistakes and shortfalls this season , we are in for a rocky ride , next season whichever league we are in.

Not bothered about Bristol City , its what we do today and in the 3 playoff games , which make or break Clough and the club.

Certainly the scouting system needs a shake up. To have Cloughs brother in charge of it is for me not a recipe for success, the man hasn't played professionally.

Can Clough and the players deal with the pressure , i am becoming to have my doubts.

UTB
Click to expand...
 

Davie Blade said:
Sad but 100% untrue.

Bristol City when relegated from the Championship they had the smallest turnover of any side in the division of barely £8million
Completely out of kilter with their wage bill was which stood at a staggering 190% of turnover the worst in the league. Nearly 3 times their turnover!!!
They had gambled on signing massively high earning players who were meant to perform.
They lost the gamble big time, with a record annual losses of £14.4million and racked up debts of £41million.


When Clough arrived Bristol were next to bottom. Cotterill actually started from a monumental worse position, by any measure ( e.g.players inherited, financially, gates, income, wages) than Clough, having to slash wages and move players on.

Their sugar daddy Steve Lansdown, had committed them to a ground sharing with rugby; a Desso pitch and ground redevelopment, so little money for the team.

Cotterill in winter 2013 signed 5 players, got rid of 6, with 5 short term loans.
Summer 2014 saw another major rebuilding with 7 in, 10 leaving including top scorer Sam Balodock. No major signings, nearly all the players free.

Only 2 players from the relegation squad of 28 players are now with the club

No vast spending, and a massive reduction in wages.

This is the true scale of rebuilding that Cotterill has achieved under huge financial constraints, at the second biggest club in the league.
Click to expand...

After trying the Jack Walker/ throw-money-at-it in the Championship and getting his fingers burned (to the tune of about £40m), Lansdown has understandably decided to try a different approach. To try and make the club self-sufficient. To survive without the crutch of a sugar-daddy bailing us out (as it became, instead of buying our way to the Prem).

So, for one, Brighton made us a silly offer for Sam Baldock in August, and in return we bought Agard, Freeman and whoever else we paid a fee for.

There is also the buying of players supposedly approaching their peak (value) years, 21-23 approx. But ones that have already established themselves at our current level. And players with "hunger," players with potential to do better. So at some point, if offers come in, we'll be selling some of the better ones, then buying some more up and coming ones.

The desso pitch, Lansdown coughed up £1.25m for. The rugby club are tennants, paying rent. All part of the football club turnover, as it's our ground, another "revenue stream" There is a Bristol Sport umbrella thing (City, the rugby club, plus basketball etc) he has created, but the football club gets the funds created by this, broadly speaking, because of ffp as well as Lansdown's desire to see the club be more sustainable and to not throw more than necessary down the toilet. He's chucking it around at the rugby team because there is no ffp in egg chasing.

Lansdown is spending £40m on refurbing Ashton Gate, with various mod cons to create more revenue and increase our turnover. We are never going to have a big enough turnover for the Championship without all this. Not from gates

So Lansdown is still spending loads, but not on over the hill wasters on stupid wages (again), on a 21st century ground, on professional people with relevant experience to run things off the pitch, on trying to buy his way into Prem rugby as this will bring in hundreds of thousands to our turnover, on structure and facilities.

It's worth noting that we have no exec boxes, the last club in top two divisions to get them when the main stand is rebuilt next season. That's one reason for low turnover. Many clubs in L1 and 2 and below have these.

He's still ploughing money in, but in different ways.

Cotterill has had a decent budget this year, Karl Robinson has mentioned once a month this season. At least. And Swindon say we have bought the league (they can have it. They're welcome to it). Cotts did a very good job last season though; this year, a superb one. We haven't topped a league for 60 years
 
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