Leaders on the pitch.

[Woodwardfan]

My ratings of player leadership qualities:

Howard 6
Alcock 6
Harris 6
McEveley 6
McGahey 4
Kennedy7
Butler ?????????
McCarthy 6
Collins 8*****
Basham 7
Flynn 5
Murphy 4
Baxter 4
Scougall 4
Ryce 4
Wallace 6
Higdon 7
O'Grady ?
Reed 6
Doyle 8
McNulty 5
McGinn 6

I may have missed a player or two but I think the list tells a story.

IMO we have missed Collins, the leader at the back. He had a working relationship with Doyle throughout many games in many months. Collins was the one Doyle "encouraged" when the defence was struggling, because Collins was the leader at the back. Similarly Collins would always tell Doyle in no uncertain terms when midfield were not protecting the back 4 well enough.

I think we have missed Collins' leadership qualities. I also think by ditching him it has caused unnecessary problems with team selection at full back. If Collins had been allowed to play then McEveley could have filled in at full back.

As for Butler and his potential leadership qualities, who knows, but I think the likelihood is that he would have made a big difference. Maybe having two leaders in central defence caused teething problems but isn't the art of management all about that sort of thing and isn't it all about dummies and prams which shouldn't really be around seasoned pros and a mature manager.

Frankly, the loan signing of McCarthy has been really disappointing. His performances have been barely average and his training arrangements could well have niggled the rest of the squad. Collins is reported to be mystified by his treatment and it is a poor way to treat a long serving and dedicated servant of the club. Only visible benefits could justify it and we have not seen those.

As regards results in that period, our league form has been unacceptable ( w4,d5 L3, but only 1 of those wins in the last 8) . As always our cup form has been great ( w4 d1 L1), but then again McCarthy hasn't played in the cup games either.

I do realise that Basham moving back has been a bonus for him and us, but that could have happened anyway., Leaders on the pitch and in the dressing room are few and far between in our squad.

 

[ShockingBadBuy]

Agree about Collins, but only because all things are relative.

Think you're a bit harsh on some of the others, though. McEveley has been in and out performance-wise, but he has been happier than most to take responsibility and at least try to lead--eg by bringing the ball forward aggressively when others prefer the sideways pass ? He also does the pointing, shouting and "information" stuff that Collins used to do, if not necessarily always as effectively or loudly. Give the man his due, though.

Difficult also to fault Bob ? Reckless tackle at PV, but always likely to happen to any defender when you're a man down and under the cosh on a slippery surface. Tackles like a bastard, moves the ball effectively and quickly up the channels, gets forward well, scores goals and makes them for others. Isn't this "leadership" ?

If leadership, in part, = taking responsibility + taking the initiative, we do have some players who are capable of this.

The problems we have at the moment are more fundamental than lack of leadership. Tempo, finishing, marking, positional stuff at both ends of the pitch, shape, basic skills, nouse. You can have 11 leaders on the pitch, and another bunch on the bench, but if the team we put out is struggling in these basic areas, there's a limit to the difference those leaders can make ?

 

[boo radley]

Basham for Captain in Midfield. If Butler can come and work with Clough Best solution.

 

[Woodwardfan]

Basham for Captain in Midfield. If Butler can come and work with Clough Best solution.

Basham's S2 ratings in midfield are 5 plus a bit. At the back 7 plus a bit.

 

[Woodwardfan]

Agree about Collins, but only because all things are relative.

Think you're a bit harsh on some of the others, though. McEveley has been in and out performance-wise, but he has been happier than most to take responsibility and at least try to lead--eg by bringing the ball forward aggressively when others prefer the sideways pass ? He also does the pointing, shouting and "information" stuff that Collins used to do, if not necessarily always as effectively or loudly. Give the man his due, though.

Difficult also to fault Bob ? Reckless tackle at PV, but always likely to happen to any defender when you're a man down and under the cosh on a slippery surface. Tackles like a bastard, moves the ball effectively and quickly up the channels, gets forward well, scores goals and makes them for others. Isn't this "leadership" ?

If leadership, in part, = taking responsibility + taking the initiative, we do have some players who are capable of this.

The problems we have at the moment are more fundamental than lack of leadership. Tempo, finishing, marking, positional stuff at both ends of the pitch, shape, basic skills, nouse. You can have 11 leaders on the pitch, and another bunch on the bench, but if the team we put out is struggling in these basic areas, there's a limit to the difference those leaders can make ?

My OP and the ratings relate purely to leadership qualities, which of course can include setting an example as a player as well, but not primarily in the context of my OP.

What I'm really on about here is the verbal encouragement and the necessary admonishments that are needed throughout games. also the game awareness, experience and confidence to keep on leading even when personally playing badly.

If we are talking about players who respond to adversity and do a "Roy Keane" and really take personal exception to losing and personally step up to the plate and try to turn the game by pure personal grit and determination, doing anything and everything possible to turn the tide, legally or illegaly, then maybe only Doyle has that character trait and only a weak imitation at that. Certainly I can see that in Alcock and Harris to a degree, plus even Murphy in his own way by effort and determination if not grit and aggression. No others though, very interesting. A lot of players can be great when the team is playing well but not when it is not.

As for that leader's "presence" on the field which involves motivating others to do their job better and to step up their game, I only see it in Doyle and Collins I'm afraid.

Murphy for example can set the tone as a player but is a shrinking violet in the leadership sense.

We don't need 11 leaders on the pitch but 3 or 4 do help and a couple who might rate 9 or10 is ideal.

 

[Tezza1889]

If Clough hadn't put his feelings before that of the club, we'd have a leader and decent centre half in Butler..

That's why Nigel signed him, and because they had a difference of opinion he shipped him out then instantly moaned about the defence and signed mcarthy, butler had enough about him to challenge/question/argue/whatever, with clough, that's a leadership quality, just nige isn't a man manager is he he'd rather spend his budget making walsall and donny better at the back than have a sit down with the player and manage him..

This showed weakness in clough in my opinion, then to repeat the excersise with collins confirmed it..

 

[ShockingBadBuy]

Fair do's, Woodward, by that definition of leadership I'll have to agree with you. We are doomed

Doyle has a go, but his deficiencies as a player kind of cancel it out for me--it's difficult to lead when some of the time the leadership you're providing is needed, in the first place, because you've arsed it up yourself. Alastair Cook might be an approximate analogy ?

I think Doyle has had possibly his best season for us, so far, and he's still criminally underrated by some supporters. But he's so slow, and technically he needs so much space to play in (one reason his instinctive movement is usually to turn backwards? also a reason why he gives the ball away a lot under pressure ?). Like Roy Keane, as you mention him, yer real leader on a football pitch needs to be able to assert himself and influence play consistently, as well as direct others. I think Doyler's days of doing that are long behind him.

So yeah, Tezza, it does make the Butler fiasco frustrating. What's more frustrating--supporter of Nigel though I am--is the fact that neither party will tell us the detail about what happened. There are a million reasons why it might have gone tits up, not all of which would necessarily reflect badly on either party. But if no one is prepared (or is being allowed) to be frank about the hows and the whys, when we are leaking goals and lack leadership, it's only going to foster discontent and reflect badly, for some, on the manager. Boooooo !

 

[bartman]

If Clough hadn't put his feelings before that of the club, we'd have a leader and decent centre half in Butler..

That's why Nigel signed him, and because they had a difference of opinion he shipped him out then instantly moaned about the defence and signed mcarthy, butler had enough about him to challenge/question/argue/whatever, with clough, that's a leadership quality, just nige isn't a man manager is he he'd rather spend his budget making walsall and donny better at the back than have a sit down with the player and manage him..

This showed weakness in clough in my opinion, then to repeat the excersise with collins confirmed it..

You are making things up again like you have in other posts. You haven't got a clue what has happened behind the scenes but you blame things on Clough anyway .
There are people on this forum who will know the truth and mmaybe (just maybe
) the comments made by Butler and Clough on this have an element of truth but that wouldn't suit your anti Clough agenda would it?

 

[boo radley]

Basham's S2 ratings in midfield are 5 plus a bit. At the back 7 plus a bit.

Probably because his first performances in midfield were not to good. Then he filled in at the back and was brilliant in one game. since then all his performances have been very good in either position. We also have far more players available to play midfield.
You asked about leaders on the pitch and to me it would be Basham from midfield. He makes better runs from there and will actually take a chance of getting in the box. He covers more ground than most on the pitch and with his running creates more space for others. Generally you would like your captain to be in midfield and set the example from there.