GoalWatch vs Walsall

[Bergen Blade]

Such a vital goal. If we'd avoided it we would have felt we were on a roll now, successfully carrying on the momentum gained from the cup win, just like last season. So what happened?

Teams who have just scored are sometimes prone to losing concentration. Their game plan has suddenly changed, as they have a lead to defend. Defenders can become less aggressive, wanting to keep a deeper defensive line, although the midfielders may not always have the same change of mentality. This can lead to gaps in between them and it's exactly what happened when Walsall scored.

• Scougall is closing down, Doyle covering behind him, although our left midfielder, Jose Baxter (just outside the top edge of the photo), is not pulling inside like he should. This means Forde gets on the ball in some space.
• Baxter leaves it to the central midfielders to deal with the situation.
• Doyle and Scougall both work hard to get a foot in, but Walsall regains possession after both attempts, and pass it wide.

• McGahey closes down their winger, but can't prevent a chipped right footed cross.

• Basham is our left sided centre half and should have stayed closer to their main striker Bradshaw.
• It is actually Baxter who has got back to mark Bradshaw, but he's unable to challenge him.

ANALYSIS:

• Many have blamed McGahey for the goal, but for me the key is that we allow them the space between our defence and midfield. This is what creates the difficulty for us.

• In a 4-4-2 the two central midfielders have a lot of space to cover and they need help from their wide men. Fans often underestimate the importance of this. In our normal 4-5-1 formation the left sided central midfielder would probably have been in position to prevent the direct passing opportunity shown in the first photo.

• It is possible to get by in a 4-4-2 as well, but you need even more focus, work rate and better positioning from all four midfielders. Sideways, collective defensive movement is something that must be drilled to perfection. From what I've seen Baxter remains a liability defensively, but we should remember that even reliable, hard working players can make positional mistakes, and I have personally blamed Flynn (partly) twice for similar situations (Chesterfield and Fleetwood). Was Baxter not following instructions, or is he unaware of his considerable defensive responsibilities in this system?

• It may be also worth noticing that Basham and McEveley had swapped sides moments before this attack, and didn't have time to swap back. It may be a contributing reason to Basham not being focused enough to keep track of Bradshaw.

 

[Woodwardfan]

That's a bit harsh on Baxter IMO Bergen. Bear in mind when the first ball in photos was played Walsall will have had only one man forward and therefore we have four defenders, at least 2 of whom are marking air. My point is that Harris has the opportunity to mark the first receiver of the ball.

This portrays exactly what I feel about our home games. We always play four at the back and the opposition play 1 up. OK full backs overlap occasionally but they spend a lot of time marking air and we are outnumbered the further up the field we play.

I think Baxter was right to do exactly what he did; I suggest the defence should have handled the situation. Harris plays no part in any of the developments and had nobody to mark out right and when that happens full backs should go central, indeed if there had been a player coming out wide from deep it would have been Baxter's job really. McGahey should have paid more regard earlier to his winger and if 6 players can't deal with 3 forwards in the middle for a simple chipped cross, then they shouldn't be getting paid. If anything I think we had so many players back they left it to each other and nobody took personal responsibility. At least Baxter made ground back when the danger developed, not that he jumped for the ball.

Very good OP, thanks.

BTW, with your technology can you please settle a friendly debate whether Baxter's shot which hit the bar was deflected. A corner was given we know, but was it a deflection or a vicious dipping shot?

 

[sitwell]

Why are you going to such lengths to defend Baxter ,The guy is lazy ,doesn't do his job, is a liability and has played poorly for 3 months. Im sure if Doyle or Scougall done their job you wouldn't defend them.

 

[metalblade]

Looking at the last photo Walsall have a man offside

 

[Grecian2000]

I'm sure Bergs doesn't mind you disagreeing with him Woody.

You haven't been on here long enough to remember when he thought Monty was at fault for a goal, he was nearly hung for it.

 

[sitwell]

Looking at the last photo Walsall have a man offside

The linesman on the JSS was just about the most inept official I have ever seen. For both sides he seemed to get every decision wrong ,it was laughable really.

 

[Darthblade]

That's a bit harsh on Baxter IMO Bergen. Bear in mind when the first ball in photos was played Walsall will have had only one man forward and therefore we have four defenders, at least 2 of whom are marking air. My point is that Harris has the opportunity to mark the first receiver of the ball.

This portrays exactly what I feel about our home games. We always play four at the back and the opposition play 1 up. OK full backs overlap occasionally but they spend a lot of time marking air and we are outnumbered the further up the field we play.

I think Baxter was right to do exactly what he did; I suggest the defence should have handled the situation. Harris plays no part in any of the developments and had nobody to mark out right and when that happens full backs should go central, indeed if there had been a player coming out wide from deep it would have been Baxter's job really. McGahey should have paid more regard earlier to his winger and if 6 players can't deal with 3 forwards in the middle for a simple chipped cross, then they shouldn't be getting paid. If anything I think we had so many players back they left it to each other and nobody took personal responsibility. At least Baxter made ground back when the danger developed, not that he jumped for the ball.

Very good OP, thanks.

BTW, with your technology can you please settle a friendly debate whether Baxter's shot which hit the bar was deflected. A corner was given we know, but was it a deflection or a vicious dipping shot?

Deflection !!
UTB & FTP

 

[oxonblade]

Just though, where was Murphy when the guy on the left had half of Yorkshire to himself?

 

[Woodwardfan]

Why are you going to such lengths to defend Baxter ,The guy is lazy ,doesn't do his job, is a liability and has played poorly for 3 months. Im sure if Doyle or Scougall done their job you wouldn't defend them.

What's it to you Sitters. And what do you think about the thread?

 

[sitwell]

I think threads like this excellent ,Bergen has pointed out quite clearly who and why he is to blame. Not just you but some seem to go to great lengths to defend him no matter how badly he plays. I really don't get it , the hold he seems to have over some fans. We have plenty of players who can play the passes he plays ,in the past few games ,Adams ,Reed ,Doyle ,Murphy ,Flynn ,Harris ,Basham and McNulty have all played similar balls to the one Baxter played ,but have contributed so much more as well.

I think Reed is a far better player in all aspects of his game and I hope he will replace him to be honest.

 

[flash-blade]

watch Baxter when we don't have the ball, he's a liability and lazy in the extreme, what is even more worrying is that despite his lack of effort he still gets so tired he cant finish a game

 

[Grecian2000]

Not just you but some seem to go to great lengths to defend him no matter how badly he plays. I really don't get it , the hold he seems to have over some fans.

Wishful thinking on lots of peoples part.

With the necessary application I think everyone can see he is the best footballer at the club. He has the talent. What becomes increasingly apparent is that the "necessary application" very seldom makes an appearance and certainly not for long periods. You only have to look at his career trajectory to see this is the case and we are now seeing, before our very eyes, a talented player sliding into potential oblivion because he hasn't got what it takes between the ears to match what he has in his feet.
It's a shame and I think lots of people think he can just snap out of it and start making the most of his skills, or that Nigel and the staff can turn him into the player he should be. It's not happening and I'm thinking it never will.

 

[oxonblade]

Would a lazy midfield player have been on the edge of our 6 yard box?

The major point made by Bergen is the gap between the defence and midfield, and the difference in mentality of these groups after scoring. I think this is valid and can be aimed at the whole of the midfield, however this is being seen as a need to attack or defend individuals.

In league games at home, we as a team seem to have collective failures, the lack of tempo and aggression in play. We also frequently change the way we are set up after 15 minutes and then later in the first half, footballers may well find this confusing

This is something that can, and should be addressed on the training ground and in the dressing room. A commanding captain would also help in this respect.

 

[Fulwood Blade]

Would a lazy midfield player have been on the edge of our 6 yard box?

The major point made by Bergen is the gap between the defence and midfield, and the difference in mentality of these groups after scoring. I think this is valid and can be aimed at the whole of the midfield, however this is being seen as a need to attack or defend individuals.

In league games at home, we as a team seem to have collective failures, the lack of tempo and aggression in play. We also frequently change the way we are set up after 15 minutes and then later in the first half, footballers may well find this confusing

This is something that can, and should be addressed on the training ground and in the dressing room. A commanding captain would also help in this respect.

Welcome to the forum btw.

1) lazy midfield player? Baxter is lazy and any player can run about and appear busy - there were 4 players round the kid that scored for Walsall - no one appears to want to take responsibility.
2) Last week at Fleetwood - loads of players in our box when they scored - young Wallace switched off, but we still had loads of others in our box.
3) collective failures? - agreed. Lack of aggression - exactly, it seems the Clough way. Lack of Tempo - agreed, but only in league games. We play the cup differently as we sit back and then break.
4) Change the team - agreed and on a regular basis. It is common for wingers and the one up front to do this. Now COG is there this probably will stop. Don't actually disagree with changing players/formations in a game though.
5) addressed in training? Yes you would like to think so - perhaps we have a bunch of players who just can't learn
6) A commanding captain? Have watched Doyle closely recently and he seems to try and talk/cajole/influence the others - perhaps it needs someone more commanding, although this nearly always comes from longevity of a player at a club, so it's a difficult one. Don't think we have anyone at the club capable of doing it.

Think Nigel has some serious thinking to do over his Christmas pud - performances like Notts/Oldham/Fleetwood/MK/Walsall cannot be allowed to continue.
Even if we had won 3 of those games we would all be on a high and just a few points off top spot, but we are not and it's the inconsistency that is causing fans a problem.

SF of League Cup - 3rd round of FA Cup are great, but we SHOULD also be 2nd or 3rd and looking forward to the 2nd half with great confidence. What we need now is a solid performance v Port Vale followed by a routine but rare home win v scunny.

As usual - UTB and to make Darthblade feel at home.....FTP.

 

[Woodwardfan]

Very interesting the more people say about the situation. The gap between defence and midfield was wide and at that stage of the game Walsall had hardly been in our final third. Why was the back 4 so deep? Or should the midfield really have been deeper, bearing in mind we had just given up the ball presumably.

I recall on the day Doyle and Scougall going in really hard on the man in possession and just missing out. Why should it have been left just to them? As I said before, who were all the Back 4 marking, if not fresh air. Walsall end the move with 3 in our box, and there was the winger who chipped the ball across. We had 6 plus the keeper in the photo frame plus McGahey and Murphy near the winger. Therefore we had 9 players back to defend a 4 player attack. The manager cannot do anything about goals conceded like this, it's a bloody nightmare really.

I still think Harris played the role of bystander, marking nothing. Baxter failed to jump once he got there. Basham was out of position sadly. McEveley went across to cover McGahey. Doyle nearly got back again. What a mess, hey we're not playing Ronaldo, Kroos and Benzema here!!

 

[Wards]

If Baxter wasn't playing we wouldn't have scored. It works both ways, like.

Fuck me if we can't have one player who doesn't run around like a headless chicken for 90 minutes then the rest are worse than I thought.

 

[Bergen Blade]

That's a bit harsh on Baxter IMO Bergen. Bear in mind when the first ball in photos was played Walsall will have had only one man forward and therefore we have four defenders, at least 2 of whom are marking air. My point is that Harris has the opportunity to mark the first receiver of the ball.

This portrays exactly what I feel about our home games. We always play four at the back and the opposition play 1 up. OK full backs overlap occasionally but they spend a lot of time marking air and we are outnumbered the further up the field we play.

I think Baxter was right to do exactly what he did; I suggest the defence should have handled the situation. Harris plays no part in any of the developments and had nobody to mark out right and when that happens full backs should go central, indeed if there had been a player coming out wide from deep it would have been Baxter's job really. McGahey should have paid more regard earlier to his winger and if 6 players can't deal with 3 forwards in the middle for a simple chipped cross, then they shouldn't be getting paid. If anything I think we had so many players back they left it to each other and nobody took personal responsibility. At least Baxter made ground back when the danger developed, not that he jumped for the ball.

Very good OP, thanks.

BTW, with your technology can you please settle a friendly debate whether Baxter's shot which hit the bar was deflected. A corner was given we know, but was it a deflection or a vicious dipping shot?

As a general rule, I think members of the back four should only break out of defence when they have to, i.e. when there are nobody else. When one members breaks out, the other three must concentrate, pull together behind him to form a more narrow three. As the key pass is hit, Basham is already on his way out, though his focus is the creative Sawyers (who plays in the hole). He retracts when Sawyers doesn't get the ball.



If Harris had pushed up as well we'd have only two remaining members of the defence intact, and that is often a recipe for disaster. It was why we conceded at Fleetwood. Baxter is in a good position to intercept or challenge Forde, but he needs the right awareness or instructions. He may be thinking that the opposition right back is 'his man' and therefore don't have to do much else, but that is wrong.

To his credit Baxter does get back in the box to help them out with the cross and is closest to the scorer, which shows some defensive responsibility when we're in real danger. But it would have taken less effort to get in the right position as the mentioned key pass was played.

I think you make a relevant comment when you say that we have enough players back and it becomes slightly unclear who should deal with the cross. Maybe Harris would have challenged Bradshaw if Baxter hadn't been back there. He's not the tallest, but he's a defender by trade and should be able to mark tightly and prevent a free header at least.

 

[bartman]

Must be gut wrenching for some that they have to blame someone else rather than McCarthy. Would Paddy have been dragged out of position for the goal like Bash and McEverley ?

 

[Woodwardfan]

As a general rule, I think members of the back four should only break out of defence when they have to, i.e. when there are nobody else. When one members breaks out, the other three must concentrate, pull together behind him to form a more narrow three. As the key pass is hit, Basham is already on his way out, though his focus is the creative Sawyers (who plays in the hole). He retracts when Sawyers doesn't get the ball.

View attachment 10033

If Harris had pushed up as well we'd have only two remaining members of the defence intact, and that is often a recipe for disaster. It was why we conceded at Fleetwood. Baxter is in a good position to intercept or challenge Forde, but he needs the right awareness or instructions. He may be thinking that the opposition right back is 'his man' and therefore don't have to do much else, but that is wrong.


o his credit Baxter does get back in the box to help them out with the cross and is closest to the scorer, which shows some defensive responsibility when we're in real danger. But it would have taken less effort to get in the right position as the mentioned key pass was played.

I think you make a relevant comment when you say that we have enough players back and it becomes slightly unclear who should deal with the cross. Maybe Harris would have challenged Bradshaw if Baxter hadn't been back there. He's not the tallest, but he's a defender by trade and should be able to mark tightly and prevent a free header at least.

If Harris had pushed on for the first ball we would have had 3 covering actually - McGahey, McEveley and Basham covering one forward. Murphy was tracking the lad who eventually crossed it too.

Harris did funnel back but what purpose did he serve, he was marking space and nobody came down their right. As a result Baxter dropped right back and got nearest to the scorer. I believe the two players mostly at fault are Basham and Harris because their decision making left them completely out of the picture. The fact that Baxter did not intercept the first ball just should not have caused the problem which arose. 8 defenders didn't mark the crosser or the scorer, indeed they got nowhere near the pair of them. That didn't arise in midfield; two defenders just didn't do their job, three if you include the tardy McGahey.

 

[Bergen Blade]

If Harris had pushed on for the first ball we would have had 3 covering actually - McGahey, McEveley and Basham covering one forward. Murphy was tracking the lad who eventually crossed it too.

Harris did funnel back but what purpose did he serve, he was marking space and nobody came down their right. As a result Baxter dropped right back and got nearest to the scorer. I believe the two players mostly at fault are Basham and Harris because their decision making left them completely out of the picture. The fact that Baxter did not intercept the first ball just should not have caused the problem which arose. 8 defenders didn't mark the crosser or the scorer, indeed they got nowhere near the pair of them. That didn't arise in midfield; two defenders just didn't do their job, three if you include the tardy McGahey.

Your solution may have been ok on this occasion, although it's not schoolbook correct. When under pressure it's a generally considered to be a good idea to get your midfielders behind the ball, force the opposition to break them down before going at the defence. Harris does break out of the line of defence more than most full backs, his aggression, tenacity and tackling makes it successful more often than not although I often hold my breath when he does it.

Why do you not want Baxter to make the ten yard jog to get in the right position? Most likely it would have made the guy on the ball pass it backwards or sideways with us remaining comfortable. If he'd still tried it Baxter would possibly have intercepted started a counter attack for us.

 

[SwissBlade]

Why are you going to such lengths to defend Baxter ,The guy is lazy ,doesn't do his job, is a liability and has played poorly for 3 months. Im sure if Doyle or Scougall done their job you wouldn't defend them.

lazy is one thing that Baxter is not, he runs his socks off, often on needless causes. I'd rather see him sit in front of Doyle and let the likes of Scoogs/ Reed chase into the box.

I'll agree that he's not in form currently, but he was the most creative player on Saturday. He did need to work back on Saturday and should've tucked in like Bergs says

 

[sitwell]

lazy is one thing that Baxter is not, he runs his socks off, often on needless causes. I'd rather see him sit in front of Doyle and let the likes of Scoogs/ Reed chase into the box.

I'll agree that he's not in form currently, but he was the most creative player on Saturday. He did need to work back on Saturday and should've tucked in like Bergs says

You see a different game to me Im afraid.

 

[Woodwardfan]

Hi Bergen. Why not Baxter? because I think his responsibility is the full back and the other 3 at the back can cope with the one forward if Harris commits to the man he is nearest to. Another reason is that Baxter can then be ready to demand the ball offensively when we win it back.

Others on here have waxed on about Baxter being lazy, it's easy to say. In actual fact I think they will be surprised that he covered so much ground in this instance. Because of them rather than you, I was disappointed you picked on him when Basham and Harris in particular and even McGahey too, were far more culpable. Sometimes players do a lot more than their detractors realise.

When Keith Edwards was knocking in the goals every week there were many who criticised his workrate. Certain players are working in different ways and with their brains and skills rather than their sweat. No team can afford to have 11 "busy workhorses", it's the matchwinners that are hard to find. Matchwinners expend energy on critical moments and those are all the harder if your body and mind is knackered running about like a headless chicken.

 

[Woodwardfan]

You see a different game to me Im afraid.

That's fine, so what? He's only expressing his opinion, isn't that the point of a forum? You wouldn't hope that all Baxter fans kept quiet would you?

 

[SwissBlade]

You see a different game to me Im afraid.

Fair enough, I've only seen a couple of games this season, but I just say as I see it. Baxter gets a lot of stick from people, but he's clearly the player we should build the midfield around.

Last season he was excellent and did a thankless task up front, probably running more than many give him credit for.

 

[Bergen Blade]

Hi Bergen. Why not Baxter? because I think his responsibility is the full back and the other 3 at the back can cope with the one forward if Harris commits to the man he is nearest to. Another reason is that Baxter can then be ready to demand the ball offensively when we win it back.

Others on here have waxed on about Baxter being lazy, it's easy to say. In actual fact I think they will be surprised that he covered so much ground in this instance. Because of them rather than you, I was disappointed you picked on him when Basham and Harris in particular and even McGahey too, were far more culpable. Sometimes players do a lot more than they realise.

When Keith Edwards was knocking in the goals every week there were many who criticised his workrate. Certain players are working in different ways and with their brains and skills rather than their sweat. No team can afford to have 11 "busy workhorses", it's the matchwinners that are hard to find. Matchwinners expend energy on critical moments and those are all the harder if your body and mind is knackered running about like a headless chicken.

Zonal defending has more rules than, 'he's close, so he should pick him up'. There is a structure, a shape to both the midfield and the defence, where they work as a unit. Imagine an elastic rope tied round each midfielders waist. When one (Scougall) pushes up, the other three concentrate, pull together more central behind him. If the opposition play it sideways, Scougall has to get back in line, and another player pushes out to close down, while they all move over in that direction.

When Baxter doesn't do this I will be singling him out. It's got nothing to do with being harsh on any player. He is the one who doesn't do his job within the ideal structure of a zonal marking midfield.

The point of analyses is to be able to tell the players: This is what went wrong. This is what we want you to do - and then hopefully you get improvement.

If you look at the photos and just see who's nearest and then think 'I think he should have done something' you'll get too many opinions, and not enough clear guidelines. You think Harris should have gone there, others may claim Basham should have pushed out, others that Adams should have spotted the danger and sprinted back from his forward position. Team meetings would get very vocal I imagine.

Or you could stick to simple, basic rules that will give you good organisation, or specific things to work on at Shirecliffe if we've been slipping up.

 

[sitwell]

That's fine, so what? He's only expressing his opinion, isn't that the point of a forum? You wouldn't hope that all Baxter fans kept quiet would you?

no not at all that's not what Ive said is it ? Swiss has his view ,I have mine ,exactly what Ive said ,no drama.

 

[Woodwardfan]

You see a different game to me Im afraid.

Sorry Sitters something compels me to say this to you( and others).

Swiss has made his point and substantiated it, that helps a lot. I'd love to learn from your points if only you would substantiate them.

Are you watching Chelsea/Stoke tonight?

Baxter is our league 1 equivalent to Chelsea's Hazard or Fabregas; he's not a Matic or a Mickel.

Baxter is our equivalent to Stoke's Bojan: he's not a Cameron.

Each team has it's balance of specialists and workhorses. There's just no point saying a teqhnique player, an artist, or a playmaker doesn't work like say Montgomery used to. It's chalk and cheese and irrelevant to suggest otherwise.

The comparison is whether Baxter is good value for a few grand a week at league 1 level or are there better options in the squad or elsewhere. There is no point whatsoever not having creativity in your team. If you have a creative player who works as hard as everybody else that's fine, but he won't be with you long in league 1.

Just possibly to make you and me happy both Reed and Cuvelier might step up and replace him by being more all round players. But for goodness sake, when we are so devoid of quality, don't pick on the only talent we have, apart from the flickering talent of Murphy.

 

[sitwell]

How many times do I have to make the point to make it sink in ? Its not about running around a lot ,he offers very little at all in a team ,which is why his career has gone spectacularly down the pan since he was rated with Rooney. He has no more quality on the ball than 5 or 6 more on our team ,his team ethic is nil ,as for his technique ,when was the last time he took a decent corner or free kick ? They are terrible and I don't mean the odd one ,its the 6 - 12 he takes a game.
I don't know how you want me to substantiate this any further ,even Im bored with it .
If you think he is value for money or the equivalent of fabregas or a specialist , an artist or a technician good for you. He would be released in the January window if I was manager ,I think he is a liability with exaggerated ability ,poor technique and will ultimately cost us promotion if we stick with him.

 

[lard]

How many times do I have to make the point to make it sink in ? Its not about running around a lot ,he offers very little at all in a team ,which is why his career has gone spectacularly down the pan since he was rated with Rooney. He has no more quality on the ball than 5 or 6 more on our team ,his team ethic is nil ,as for his technique ,when was the last time he took a decent corner or free kick ? They are terrible and I don't mean the odd one ,its the 6 - 12 he takes a game.
I don't know how you want me to substantiate this any further ,even Im bored with it .
If you think he is value for money or the equivalent of fabregas or a specialist , an artist or a technician good for you. He would be released in the January window if I was manager ,I think he is a liability with exaggerated ability ,poor technique and will ultimately cost us promotion if we stick with him.

There are two good free kicks in the highlights from the last game...