Could they hack it in the championship?

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Chali 2na

The Tuna fish that descended from Lake Michigan
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The signings of Mark Duffy and Leon Clarke have left me with mixed feelings..

On one hand, they were 2 of the best players in the league last year. Both are clearly capable of doing their jobs (and excelling) in L1.

One the other, they're both 30+ and have had the opportunity to show their worth in championship and frankly not taken it.

It got me wondering, which of the new signings (and the squad for that matter) would be able to make the step up?

I personally think:

George Long - potentially yes
John Brayford - yes
Chris Hussey - probably not
John Fleck - yes
Jack O'Connell - yes
Chris Basham - not based on what we've seen, but he has before.
Marc McNulty - probably not
Che Adams - potentially yes
Billy Sharp(captain) - yes
Matt Done - no
Jake Wright - no
Dominic Calvert-Lewin - potentially yes
Paul Coutts(Transfer Listed) - no
Stefan Scougall - probably not
Kieran Wallace(Transfer Listed) - no
Kieron Freeman(Transfer Listed) - no
James Wilson - probably not
Mark Duffy - probably not
Louis Reed - potentially yes, buy probably not
Ben Whiteman - potentially yes
Leon Clarke - probably not
James Wallace(Transfer Listed) - if he got fit, yes: so probably not
Martyn Woolford(Transfer Listed) - hahahahahaha

While I think Wilder's doing a great job addressing the problems, I can't hep but feel that if we were to be promoted, another cull would be needed to compete.

And before anyone says we should just worry about the division were in now and forget the championship: if our ambitions are promotion, then we should be preparing for promotion.
 

Chali 2na said:
The signings of Mark Duffy and Leon Clarke have left me with mixed feelings..

On one hand, they were 2 of the best players in the league last year. Both are clearly capable of doing their jobs (and excelling) in L1.

One the other, they're both 30+ and have had the opportunity to show their worth in championship and frankly not taken it.

It got me wondering, which of the new signings (and the squad for that matter) would be able to make the step up?

I personally think:

George Long - potentially yes
John Brayford - yes
Chris Hussey - probably not
John Fleck - yes
Jack O'Connell - yes
Chris Basham - not based on what we've seen, but he has before.
Marc McNulty - probably not
Che Adams - potentially yes
Billy Sharp(captain) - yes
Matt Done - no
Jake Wright - no
Dominic Calvert-Lewin - potentially yes
Paul Coutts(Transfer Listed) - no
Stefan Scougall - probably not
Kieran Wallace(Transfer Listed) - no
Kieron Freeman(Transfer Listed) - no
James Wilson - probably not
Mark Duffy - probably not
Louis Reed - potentially yes, buy probably not
Ben Whiteman - potentially yes
Leon Clarke - probably not
James Wallace(Transfer Listed) - if he got fit, yes: so probably not
Martyn Woolford(Transfer Listed) - hahahahahaha

While I think Wilder's doing a great job addressing the problems, I can't hep but feel that if we were to be promoted, another cull would be needed to compete.

And before anyone says we should just worry about the division were in now and forget the championship: if our ambitions are promotion, then we should be preparing for promotion.
Click to expand...

Chali , let's worry about it once we get there preferably at the end of this season with our proper league 1 side . Cross that bridge when we come to it .

Progression will mean rebuilding with casualties on the way . Let's just get out of league 1

UTB
 
Lord Bos of Eckington. said:
Chali , let's worry about it once we get there preferably at the end of this season with our proper league 1 side . Cross that bridge when we come to it .

Progression will mean rebuilding with casualties on the way . Let's just get out of league 1

UTB
Click to expand...

I take your point, and there has to be an element of equipping yourself for the current challenge, not future ones, however, it stinks of waiting until the night before to do your homework.

I would feel more confident if there were more signings like Fleck and O'Connell who were at an age to step up to the CH when the time arises.
 
Chali 2na said:
The signings of Mark Duffy and Leon Clarke have left me with mixed feelings..

On one hand, they were 2 of the best players in the league last year. Both are clearly capable of doing their jobs (and excelling) in L1.

One the other, they're both 30+ and have had the opportunity to show their worth in championship and frankly not taken it.

It got me wondering, which of the new signings (and the squad for that matter) would be able to make the step up?

I personally think:

George Long - potentially yes
John Brayford - yes
Chris Hussey - probably not
John Fleck - yes
Jack O'Connell - yes
Chris Basham - not based on what we've seen, but he has before.
Marc McNulty - probably not
Che Adams - potentially yes
Billy Sharp(captain) - yes
Matt Done - no
Jake Wright - no
Dominic Calvert-Lewin - potentially yes
Paul Coutts(Transfer Listed) - no
Stefan Scougall - probably not
Kieran Wallace(Transfer Listed) - no
Kieron Freeman(Transfer Listed) - no
James Wilson - probably not
Mark Duffy - probably not
Louis Reed - potentially yes, buy probably not
Ben Whiteman - potentially yes
Leon Clarke - probably not
James Wallace(Transfer Listed) - if he got fit, yes: so probably not
Martyn Woolford(Transfer Listed) - hahahahahaha

While I think Wilder's doing a great job addressing the problems, I can't hep but feel that if we were to be promoted, another cull would be needed to compete.

And before anyone says we should just worry about the division were in now and forget the championship: if our ambitions are promotion, then we should be preparing for promotion.
Click to expand...
Let's get there first
 
Well we seem to have stopped planning beyond one season.

So we will worry about relegation from the Championship when we get to the Championship. Most players will probably need to go if we get there but I am sure old Tufty will sort it all out, apparently he can fix anything.
 
Chali 2na said:
The signings of Mark Duffy and Leon Clarke have left me with mixed feelings..

On one hand, they were 2 of the best players in the league last year. Both are clearly capable of doing their jobs (and excelling) in L1.

One the other, they're both 30+ and have had the opportunity to show their worth in championship and frankly not taken it.

It got me wondering, which of the new signings (and the squad for that matter) would be able to make the step up?

I personally think:

George Long - potentially yes
John Brayford - yes
Chris Hussey - probably not
John Fleck - yes
Jack O'Connell - yes
Chris Basham - not based on what we've seen, but he has before.
Marc McNulty - probably not
Che Adams - potentially yes
Billy Sharp(captain) - yes
Matt Done - no
Jake Wright - no
Dominic Calvert-Lewin - potentially yes
Paul Coutts(Transfer Listed) - no
Stefan Scougall - probably not
Kieran Wallace(Transfer Listed) - no
Kieron Freeman(Transfer Listed) - no
James Wilson - probably not
Mark Duffy - probably not
Louis Reed - potentially yes, buy probably not
Ben Whiteman - potentially yes
Leon Clarke - probably not
James Wallace(Transfer Listed) - if he got fit, yes: so probably not
Martyn Woolford(Transfer Listed) - hahahahahaha

While I think Wilder's doing a great job addressing the problems, I can't hep but feel that if we were to be promoted, another cull would be needed to compete.

And before anyone says we should just worry about the division were in now and forget the championship: if our ambitions are promotion, then we should be preparing for promotion.
Click to expand...

Think we have built enough teams that were capable of playing in the Championship but couldn't get out of league one. This appears to be a set of players with a short term purpose in mind. Promotion from this league.
 
I think that is a fair assessment but I would say Long - No, Done probably yes and I would add that lad Brookes as a yes
 
I don't know what you have been watching my friend but potentially yes for George long really?? He had one thing to do all match at grimsby it was hit straight at him and he still didn't manage to get it should have been a routine save for him. I am still unsure if he is even good enough for league one yes he was decent last season but we need at least a back up keeper to keep him on his toes. Which we haven't got at min so I can see him getting comfortable and dropping bollocks. But as for the rest of them then maybe maybe not but let's just hope we can get there first before we start to worry about that. If we get there I am sure a lot of players will come and a lot of players will go so let's not worry about this team been good enough for the championship and let's worry about it been good enough to push for promotion of league one.
 
Yes. Let immediacy be our watchword! I like that.

IMMEDIACY. Bugger Transition IMMEDIACY!
 
Chali 2na said:
The signings of Mark Duffy and Leon Clarke have left me with mixed feelings..

On one hand, they were 2 of the best players in the league last year. Both are clearly capable of doing their jobs (and excelling) in L1.

One the other, they're both 30+ and have had the opportunity to show their worth in championship and frankly not taken it.

It got me wondering, which of the new signings (and the squad for that matter) would be able to make the step up?

I personally think:

George Long - potentially yes
John Brayford - yes
Chris Hussey - probably not
John Fleck - yes
Jack O'Connell - yes
Chris Basham - not based on what we've seen, but he has before.
Marc McNulty - probably not
Che Adams - potentially yes
Billy Sharp(captain) - yes
Matt Done - no
Jake Wright - no
Dominic Calvert-Lewin - potentially yes
Paul Coutts(Transfer Listed) - no
Stefan Scougall - probably not
Kieran Wallace(Transfer Listed) - no
Kieron Freeman(Transfer Listed) - no
James Wilson - probably not
Mark Duffy - probably not
Louis Reed - potentially yes, buy probably not
Ben Whiteman - potentially yes
Leon Clarke - probably not
James Wallace(Transfer Listed) - if he got fit, yes: so probably not
Martyn Woolford(Transfer Listed) - hahahahahaha

While I think Wilder's doing a great job addressing the problems, I can't hep but feel that if we were to be promoted, another cull would be needed to compete.

And before anyone says we should just worry about the division were in now and forget the championship: if our ambitions are promotion, then we should be preparing for promotion.
Click to expand...
I get your point but how would we do it?
There seems to be two options;
Buy the best players in the league; the problem with that, apart from the cost, is that the younger ones want to play at a higher level and always get tempted by offers from clubs in the two leagues above, who can pay bigger wages. Even if we could persuade the players to join us it would take a huge outlay.

Buy the best young players in leagues below us; it takes time to do this, the players often need time to raise their game and there's a risk that some aren't able to. We might have got away with that under Clough if we hadn't talked up our investment so much but I think most supporters have just run out of patience now.

As I've said on another thread, I don't think there's a huge gap between the top of the third and the bottom of the second. The bigger gap is further up the table. We will need to strengthen but we'll also have an extra £5m+ to do it with.
 
I don`t think Long can hack it for a promotion chasing team in L1,let alone one in the Championship. Take no pleasure in saying it but sadly feel very strongly it`s the case.
 
The problem with planning for the Championship is that it costs an amount in excess of what the owners are willing to fund, most of the signings would be young and unproven and may not be ready straight away so promotion could take a while, and in that time we'd only sell the best of them anyway.

Having a squad mainly of proven L1 players with no important saleable assets/players likely to be sold is the safest way to go about it. So that's what we should be doing after six bloody years down here - not that it means we shouldn't pick up potential assets (like O'Connell and Fleck) when we can, but it's not a priority at this moment, and the budget will go much further when it's spent on the likes of Clarke - proven but inexpensive.
 
Can they do better than 11th in league bastard one?
 

I think a mistake we've made in the past is having half a eye on the Championship.
I think we should lessen the focus on potential and future development.

Instead we need to focus on the here and now.
Get the tried and tested top performers of league 1.
Worry about the Championship when we get there.
 
Let's just get out of this god forsaken division before we even contemplate what we would do in the Championship. And it's then a different ball game. Some players that don't perform in this league might, only might mind you, perform in a division that affords a little more space. I agree though that a fair few would be moved on but one or two might show something different. I seem to remember one or two players performing in the cup run but couldn't cut it in this league. But like I said, let's just get out of this league.... finally.
 
I think we've been under the misapprehension for the past few seasons now that a sprinkling of average ex Championship players, playing alongside a bunch of average league one players, is the recipe for promotion and it's obviously not the case. Sometimes players just can't cut it playing at a different level down as well as up.

As other clubs have shown, the best way to get out of this damn league is to cherry-pick the best at this level and then worry about who's fit fir purpose at the next level when we get there.
 
Lane Ender said:
Let's get there first
Click to expand...

biggey blade said:
I don't know what you have been watching my friend but potentially yes for George long really?? He had one thing to do all match at grimsby it was hit straight at him and he still didn't manage to get it should have been a routine save for him. I am still unsure if he is even good enough for league one yes he was decent last season but we need at least a back up keeper to keep him on his toes. Which we haven't got at min so I can see him getting comfortable and dropping bollocks. But as for the rest of them then maybe maybe not but let's just hope we can get there first before we start to worry about that. If we get there I am sure a lot of players will come and a lot of players will go so let's not worry about this team been good enough for the championship and let's worry about it been good enough to push for promotion of league one.
Click to expand...

BushBlade said:
I get your point but how would we do it?
There seems to be two options;
Buy the best players in the league; the problem with that, apart from the cost, is that the younger ones want to play at a higher level and always get tempted by offers from clubs in the two leagues above, who can pay bigger wages. Even if we could persuade the players to join us it would take a huge outlay.

Buy the best young players in leagues below us; it takes time to do this, the players often need time to raise their game and there's a risk that some aren't able to. We might have got away with that under Clough if we hadn't talked up our investment so much but I think most supporters have just run out of patience now.

As I've said on another thread, I don't think there's a huge gap between the top of the third and the bottom of the second. The bigger gap is further up the table. We will need to strengthen but we'll also have an extra £5m+ to do it with.
Click to expand...

Sheffsteel said:
I think a mistake we've made in the past is having half a eye on the Championship.
I think we should lessen the focus on potential and future development.

Instead we need to focus on the here and now.
Get the tried and tested top performers of league 1.
Worry about the Championship when we get there.
Click to expand...

TC's Magic Boots said:
Let's just get out of this god forsaken division before we even contemplate what we would do in the Championship. And it's then a different ball game. Some players that don't perform in this league might, only might mind you, perform in a division that affords a little more space. I agree though that a fair few would be moved on but one or two might show something different. I seem to remember one or two players performing in the cup run but couldn't cut it in this league. But like I said, let's just get out of this league.... finally.
Click to expand...

Seems like everyone has a similar response, so I'll address it ll in one post:

As for worrying about getting out this division first:
In recent years plenty of teams have managed to poach the best players in the division while simultaneously building for the championship; Bristol being the perfect example. Like I said, we can sign players like Fleck and O'Connell who do both: immediately help out in a promotion push and also help in the championship.

I understand that for some the short term is the immediate priority but successful teams don't work on a season by season basis, they plan for long term.

As for George Long:
I knew that would rattle a few people, I was debating what to put as I'm very much on the fence with him. That's why I said potentially: he's currently a L1 keeper, and has yet to reach his full potential. His strengths/weaknesses/suitability is best saved for another thread.
 
Chali 2na I understand what you mean about teams been able to build to still be capable in the championship but it also works the other way around how many teams do you see that do it the other way around and build a team of loan players to get them out of this shit league and then build in the next season if they do manage to get up. With the money been a massive bonus if we do get up. Personally like I said I'd rather worry about us getting out of this shit league before I even start to think about been in the championship. It's ok saying we aren't signing players good enough to stick it in the championship but you haven't even seen them play a competitive match in a blades shirt and we don't have the persuasion power that clubs in the championship and premiership have when it comes to signing top class players. But right now I am happy with all the signings that wilder has made.
 
Fair point imo - made a similar one on the Clarke thread.

However, thinking about it i'd much rather have a squad actually geared to going up.

In addition - we may have some youth prospects like brooks (adams going could be his chance to get some games), dcl, whiteman, semple reed and the likes who will be 12m more experienced.
 
biggey blade said:
Chali 2na I understand what you mean about teams been able to build to still be capable in the championship but it also works the other way around how many teams do you see that do it the other way around and build a team of loan players to get them out of this shit league and then build in the next season if they do manage to get up. With the money been a massive bonus if we do get up. Personally like I said I'd rather worry about us getting out of this shit league before I even start to think about been in the championship. It's ok saying we aren't signing players good enough to stick it in the championship but you haven't even seen them play a competitive match in a blades shirt and we don't have the persuasion power that clubs in the championship and premiership have when it comes to signing top class players. But right now I am happy with all the signings that wilder has made.
Click to expand...

Firstly, no team could build a team of loan players, as you can only play a maximum of 4 at one time. (I would love us to to get in some quality loanees to supplement the team.)

Secondly, in response to: "Personally like I said I'd rather worry about us getting out of this shit league before I even start to think about been in the championship."
Building a team capable of getting promoted and building a team capable of staying in the CH aren't mutually exclusive.

As for not seeing them play: I have seen them play for other teams. I have also seen that Done, Clarke and Duffy have had chances in the CH before and been out of their depth, none of them are getting any better and are playing (what appears to be, based on age) the max of their potential.

Out of interest Bigey, are there any of my predictions (in the OP) that you don't agree with? In fairness it's all subjective and I was wrong once.
 
Chali 2na said:
Seems like everyone has a similar response, so I'll address it ll in one post:

As for worrying about getting out this division first:
In recent years plenty of teams have managed to poach the best players in the division while simultaneously building for the championship; Bristol being the perfect example. Like I said, we can sign players like Fleck and O'Connell who do both: immediately help out in a promotion push and also help in the championship.

I understand that for some the short term is the immediate priority but successful teams don't work on a season by season basis, they plan for long term.

As for George Long:
I knew that would rattle a few people, I was debating what to put as I'm very much on the fence with him. That's why I said potentially: he's currently a L1 keeper, and has yet to reach his full potential. His strengths/weaknesses/suitability is best saved for another thread.
Click to expand...
Bristol City are far from the perfect example. Cotterill's 'preparations' for the championship resulted in him getting the sack. And they spent a few quid too.

Wolves did it but spent a lot of money doing so and we know that further substantial spending by our owners is not on the cards.
 
Chali 2na said:
The signings of Mark Duffy and Leon Clarke have left me with mixed feelings..

On one hand, they were 2 of the best players in the league last year. Both are clearly capable of doing their jobs (and excelling) in L1.

One the other, they're both 30+ and have had the opportunity to show their worth in championship and frankly not taken it.

It got me wondering, which of the new signings (and the squad for that matter) would be able to make the step up?

I personally think:

George Long - potentially yes
John Brayford - yes
Chris Hussey - probably not
John Fleck - yes
Jack O'Connell - yes
Chris Basham - not based on what we've seen, but he has before.
Marc McNulty - probably not
Che Adams - potentially yes
Billy Sharp(captain) - yes
Matt Done - no
Jake Wright - no
Dominic Calvert-Lewin - potentially yes
Paul Coutts(Transfer Listed) - no
Stefan Scougall - probably not
Kieran Wallace(Transfer Listed) - no
Kieron Freeman(Transfer Listed) - no
James Wilson - probably not
Mark Duffy - probably not
Louis Reed - potentially yes, buy probably not
Ben Whiteman - potentially yes
Leon Clarke - probably not
James Wallace(Transfer Listed) - if he got fit, yes: so probably not
Martyn Woolford(Transfer Listed) - hahahahahaha

While I think Wilder's doing a great job addressing the problems, I can't hep but feel that if we were to be promoted, another cull would be needed to compete.

And before anyone says we should just worry about the division were in now and forget the championship: if our ambitions are promotion, then we should be preparing for promotion.
Click to expand...
The thing is that when we get promoted, our players become saleable assets to the teams that want to emulate us. With that in mind, it becomes far easier to move players on than if you finish 11th. As they are easier to move on, it frees up budget for the next onslaught of changes. If CW is as good as we hope at building teams, it SHOULD be a little easier for him to do so, bearing in mind the funds earmarked for a push for the Prem within the game changing investment available.
 
Chali 2na said:
The signings of Mark Duffy and Leon Clarke have left me with mixed feelings..

On one hand, they were 2 of the best players in the league last year. Both are clearly capable of doing their jobs (and excelling) in L1.

One the other, they're both 30+ and have had the opportunity to show their worth in championship and frankly not taken it.

It got me wondering, which of the new signings (and the squad for that matter) would be able to make the step up?

I personally think:

George Long - potentially yes
John Brayford - yes
Chris Hussey - probably not
John Fleck - yes
Jack O'Connell - yes
Chris Basham - not based on what we've seen, but he has before.
Marc McNulty - probably not
Che Adams - potentially yes
Billy Sharp(captain) - yes
Matt Done - no
Jake Wright - no
Dominic Calvert-Lewin - potentially yes
Paul Coutts(Transfer Listed) - no
Stefan Scougall - probably not
Kieran Wallace(Transfer Listed) - no
Kieron Freeman(Transfer Listed) - no
James Wilson - probably not
Mark Duffy - probably not
Louis Reed - potentially yes, buy probably not
Ben Whiteman - potentially yes
Leon Clarke - probably not
James Wallace(Transfer Listed) - if he got fit, yes: so probably not
Martyn Woolford(Transfer Listed) - hahahahahaha

While I think Wilder's doing a great job addressing the problems, I can't hep but feel that if we were to be promoted, another cull would be needed to compete.

And before anyone says we should just worry about the division were in now and forget the championship: if our ambitions are promotion, then we should be preparing for promotion.
Click to expand...

Interesting post and I'd be lying if I hadn't thought on similar lines about who would make the step up but I reckon we need to ask this question around next April if we're top of the League! Briefly though I reckon about half the forst team will be good enough to make the step up, but lets worry about that in 2017 - hopefully!
 
Booker4 said:
Interesting post and I'd be lying if I hadn't thought on similar lines about who would make the step up but I reckon we need to ask this question around next April if we're top of the League! Briefly though I reckon about half the forst team will be good enough to make the step up, but lets worry about that in 2017 - hopefully!
Click to expand...
True and I'm not saying in my responses to Chali that it doesn't matter at all, although perhaps it comes across like that. We can't replace an entire team so we do need some to be able to step up a level.
But there's a lot of water under the bridge before then and perhaps if we look like serious contenders for the autos in Jan CW might be able to talk the board into investing in a couple of good prospects to strengthen us and who are potentially good enough for the championship. Or youth team players progress faster than we expected or players we don't rate improve under the new regime.

Who knows? But if you try to cover every base you risk spreading yourself too thinly and losing focus.
 

I feel the below players are the ones who would play in the Championship and not be out of their depth, given the style of play can change slightly and there may be more time on the ball without getting hounded down.

Brayford
Fleck
Basham
Adams
Sharp
Reed
Possibly Done too
 
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