Cloughs management style

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Love him or loathe him, I don't think there can be much of an argument that what Brian Clough achieved during his managerial career was anything short of astonishing. To win League titles and European Cups with teams made up of good players, but by no means superstars, was Roy of the Rovers stuff. A feat that will never ever be repeated, because, like it or not football and more importantly, footballers, have changed beyond recognition since those days.

As his son, it would be only natural that Nigel Clough would have taken a lot of his managerial style from his Father and probably a fair bit of his personality and beliefs. But whilst Brian was dealing with Kenny Burns, John McGovern, Kevin Hector, Larry Lloyd, Dave Mackay etc etc, Nigel is dealing with young players earning thousands of pounds and their more importantly, their agents. While his Fathers players would have run through a brick wall if he'd asked, I suspect that many of Nigel's charges would be onto those agents, PFA or feigning injury at a similar request.

I don't know, but it appears to me that NC likes to rule with an Iron rod and is a stubborn disciplinarian who expects the utmost respect from his players. At least that is how United's performances and off field dealings come across, many of the team seem to be playing within themselves, scared to make a mistake and consequently look to play a simple safe ball and retain possession at all costs. We have some talented players, but rarely do I see any individuality, the style of play is robotic, one dimensional, predictable but above all risk averse. Few of them seem to have the stomach for a fight and I fear that will cost us against Barnsley, Doncaster and Chesterfield.

We are in a fantastic position but the players just don't seem up for it and seem unwilling to raise their game to get us over the line. Ryan Flynn ran Scunthorpe ragged last Tuesday pulled defenders out of position, created space and openings, as he did today before being subbed. But he showed what a bit of individual skill and endeavour can do to our overall game. I'd love NC to relax the leash and tell the players to get out there and express themselves, attack the opposition and play without fear, like we did in the Cups and get the fans out of their seats.

Surely it's better to fail whilst going all out to win, than coming up short through just trying not to lose? :(
 

Love him or loathe him, I don't think there can be much of an argument that what Brian Clough achieved during his managerial career was anything short of astonishing. To win League titles and European Cups with teams made up of good players, but by no means superstars, was Roy of the Rovers stuff. A feat that will never ever be repeated, because, like it or not football and more importantly, footballers, have changed beyond recognition since those days.

As his son, it would be only natural that Nigel Clough would have taken a lot of his managerial style from his Father and probably a fair bit of his personality and beliefs. But whilst Brian was dealing with Kenny Burns, John McGovern, Kevin Hector, Larry Lloyd, Dave Mackay etc etc, Nigel is dealing with young players earning thousands of pounds and their more importantly, their agents. While his Fathers players would have run through a brick wall if he'd asked, I suspect that many of Nigel's charges would be onto those agents, PFA or feigning injury at a similar request.

I don't know, but it appears to me that NC likes to rule with an Iron rod and is a stubborn disciplinarian who expects the utmost respect from his players. At least that is how United's performances and off field dealings come across, many of the team seem to be playing within themselves, scared to make a mistake and consequently look to play a simple safe ball and retain possession at all costs. We have some talented players, but rarely do I see any individuality, the style of play is robotic, one dimensional, predictable but above all risk averse. Few of them seem to have the stomach for a fight and I fear that will cost us against Barnsley, Doncaster and Chesterfield.

We are in a fantastic position but the players just don't seem up for it and seem unwilling to raise their game to get us over the line. Ryan Flynn ran Scunthorpe ragged last Tuesday pulled defenders out of position, created space and openings, as he did today before being subbed. But he showed what a bit of individual skill and endeavour can do to our overall game. I'd love NC to relax the leash and tell the players to get out there and express themselves, attack the opposition and play without fear, like we did in the Cups and get the fans out of their seats.

Surely it's better to fail whilst going all out to win, than coming up short through just trying not to lose? :(
In principle you are right but, for example, if we go all out for a win at Barnsley (and it it quite obvious we do this) will fans be happy losing because the style of play is more pleasing on the eye or at this stage of the season, should it be win at all costs ? For me, at this stage of the season it should be the latter even thou the football on display may be more turgid than normal (if possible)
 
As his son, it would be only natural that Nigel Clough would have taken a lot of his managerial style from his Father and probably a fair bit of his personality and beliefs. But whilst Brian was dealing with Kenny Burns, John McGovern, Kevin Hector, Larry Lloyd, Dave Mackay etc etc, Nigel is dealing with young players earning thousands of pounds and their more importantly, their agents. While his Fathers players would have run through a brick wall if he'd asked, I suspect that many of Nigel's charges would be onto those agents, PFA or feigning injury at a similar request.
As you say, demands on managers from players, agents etc. have changed with the 'modern' game, but that's absolutely no 'get-out clause' for Clough. Every single manager has to deal with this nowadays, and if Clough can't handle it he's in the wrong job. Sure, modern players 'earn thousands of pounds per week' but, as we saw again yesterday, most of them are fucking pussies. Burns, Mackay, Keane etc. were hard bastards and wouldn't have stood for NC's ineffective tactics, blatant favouritism and constant media excuses. Not for a minute.

Yes Nigel has taken certain characteristics from Brian - pig-headed obstinacy, curtness in dealing with the press, a 'my way or highway' mentality, not suffering fools gladly etc. Darren Ferguson displayed the same traits as this and it was possibly inherited. But...

...Brian and Alex earned the right to behave like that by being exceptional at what they were employed to do - winning. Clough (and Darren) have had extremely underwhelming managerial careers (esp. NC) and would do better to keep quiet until they can point to a run of success in their chosen field.
 
In principle you are right but, for example, if we go all out for a win at Barnsley (and it it quite obvious we do this) will fans be happy losing because the style of play is more pleasing on the eye or at this stage of the season, should it be win at all costs ? For me, at this stage of the season it should be the latter even thou the football on display may be more turgid than normal (if possible)
But he is not sending them out to win, not even at home to Crewe. A point will make him content.
 
I agree with every word of the OP but it's stating the obvious. We are months beyond this becoming obvious and the OP would have been a great one if written in October or November when I was writing them.;):D

Added to the negatives of the management style is the poor performance of his brother and also his inability to change to Plan B and indeed use his substitutions that well.
 
"robotic, predictable, one dimensional......risk averse" See one game you've seen them all. They can be easy on the eye, eg Baxter, Basham, Murphy, Flynn, all can play football but ultimately its a failure and Cloughie will be judged on that.

I bet we get spawny in the play -offs , fluke our way to the final, get outplayed and win by a last minute goal !
 
I agree with every word of the OP but it's stating the obvious. We are months beyond this becoming obvious and the OP would have been a great one if written in October or November when I was writing

Oh woody you're so fine, you're so fine you blow my mind!
 
Woody and OP spot on
I saw a set of players yesterday afraid to do anything off plan. The mental fatigue NC talked about cannot be used as an excuse as that hasn't affected Crewe players or Bradford players (16 man squad and as many cup games as us) or Rochdale - lose your best players but still continue to fight etc. if it is mental fatigue then it's born out of a fear to do anything not in the script.

When pressing you have to do that in groups of 2 or 3 (you hunt in packs) but yesterday it was one's or twos - different from cup games - why?
Surely poorer oppo are going to be more prone to mistakes than prem oppo in cup games, when pressed. Why don't we do that and get off to a flier?

That is not a team out there. It's a selection of individuals where the collective is lower than the sum. The plan is - give it to Murphy and let's see if he can do some magic. There are no decent crosses - nothing for Davies to nut in. There is no approach play to the edge of the box then feed the runner in (the only way to break down a stubborn defensive unit unless you bully and batter them with a series of "in the mixer balls")

It's abundantly obvious that the players do it one way or no way.

Collins 3 month calf injury?
Fuck off.
I'll bet he has been a lone decenting voice (as a senior member of the squad feeling he had a right to question stuff) and been bombed out for doing so. Now if that happens to one of the senior guys then the others won't step out of line.

So, it begs the question, why all these ex NC players flocking to the lane - well 1. They couldn't get a game where they were 2. They just came back from long term injury.
But look at the form of Bryaford (couldn't tackle a wet paper bag) and Coutts - utter waste of a shirt and Benny - looked like he was crossing his legs not the ball.
Has something changed?
Is Nigel under so much pressure his iron rod rule has spiked and bile on it and is putting the fear of God into be players?
That's what I observed yesterday and that's no recipe for any success in his day and age.
 
Oh woody you're so fine, you're so fine you blow my mind!


Hey, you've learned so much from me and me a bit from you. You know that. The bollockings you've given me over the months have been enjoyable and often made me check my opinions, that's what the forum is all about.

You might turn out to be right about Clough in due course. I hope you are! It'll be a pity if you were wrong about the Board and Clough too, bit demoralising really.;)
 
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Woody and OP spot on
I saw a set of players yesterday afraid to do anything off plan. The mental fatigue NC talked about cannot be used as an excuse as that hasn't affected Crewe players or Bradford players (16 man squad and as many cup games as us) or Rochdale - lose your best players but still continue to fight etc. if it is mental fatigue then it's born out of a fear to do anything not in the script.

When pressing you have to do that in groups of 2 or 3 (you hunt in packs) but yesterday it was one's or twos - different from cup games - why?
Surely poorer oppo are going to be more prone to mistakes than prem oppo in cup games, when pressed. Why don't we do that and get off to a flier?

That is not a team out there. It's a selection of individuals where the collective is lower than the sum. The plan is - give it to Murphy and let's see if he can do some magic. There are no decent crosses - nothing for Davies to nut in. There is no approach play to the edge of the box then feed the runner in (the only way to break down a stubborn defensive unit unless you bully and batter them with a series of "in the mixer balls")

It's abundantly obvious that the players do it one way or no way.

Collins 3 month calf injury?
Fuck off.
I'll bet he has been a lone decenting voice (as a senior member of the squad feeling he had a right to question stuff) and been bombed out for doing so. Now if that happens to one of the senior guys then the others won't step out of line.

So, it begs the question, why all these ex NC players flocking to the lane - well 1. They couldn't get a game where they were 2. They just came back from long term injury.
But look at the form of Bryaford (couldn't tackle a wet paper bag) and Coutts - utter waste of a shirt and Benny - looked like he was crossing his legs not the ball.
Has something changed?
Is Nigel under so much pressure his iron rod rule has spiked and bile on it and is putting the fear of God into be players?
That's what I observed yesterday and that's no recipe for any success in his day and age.


In September in an interview Collins made the point that clean sheets were important but pointed out the essential need for goalscorers in promotion teams ( I OP'd the interview in an OP back then). That will not have gone down well.
 
Is Nigel under so much pressure his iron rod rule has spiked and bile on it and is putting the fear of God into be players?

surely that would be the son of god :p

Set me thinking of other sons who followed their more able fathers'footsteps into a sport - Len Hutton, Ian Wright, Paul Ince, Darren Ferguson,Peter Schmeichel to name a few. In most cases its a double-edged sword and their abiity and achievements rarely reached the level of expectation generated by their father's surname.In a way I feel sorry for them and no doubt it adds pressure which must come out in strange ways - the sporting equivalent of the genetic mutation that produced the Hapsburg Jaw perhaps.
 
Love him or loathe him, I don't think there can be much of an argument that what Brian Clough achieved during his managerial career was anything short of astonishing. To win League titles and European Cups with teams made up of good players, but by no means superstars, was Roy of the Rovers stuff. A feat that will never ever be repeated, because, like it or not football and more importantly, footballers, have changed beyond recognition since those days.

As his son, it would be only natural that Nigel Clough would have taken a lot of his managerial style from his Father and probably a fair bit of his personality and beliefs. But whilst Brian was dealing with Kenny Burns, John McGovern, Kevin Hector, Larry Lloyd, Dave Mackay etc etc, Nigel is dealing with young players earning thousands of pounds and their more importantly, their agents. While his Fathers players would have run through a brick wall if he'd asked, I suspect that many of Nigel's charges would be onto those agents, PFA or feigning injury at a similar request.

I don't know, but it appears to me that NC likes to rule with an Iron rod and is a stubborn disciplinarian who expects the utmost respect from his players. At least that is how United's performances and off field dealings come across, many of the team seem to be playing within themselves, scared to make a mistake and consequently look to play a simple safe ball and retain possession at all costs. We have some talented players, but rarely do I see any individuality, the style of play is robotic, one dimensional, predictable but above all risk averse. Few of them seem to have the stomach for a fight and I fear that will cost us against Barnsley, Doncaster and Chesterfield.

We are in a fantastic position but the players just don't seem up for it and seem unwilling to raise their game to get us over the line. Ryan Flynn ran Scunthorpe ragged last Tuesday pulled defenders out of position, created space and openings, as he did today before being subbed. But he showed what a bit of individual skill and endeavour can do to our overall game. I'd love NC to relax the leash and tell the players to get out there and express themselves, attack the opposition and play without fear, like we did in the Cups and get the fans out of their seats.

Surely it's better to fail whilst going all out to win, than coming up short through just trying not to lose? :(


I still look back at the Notts C game when we were sat near the dug out.

There was fear in the non playing players that night over a box that got knocked over, it was all so unnessary.
 
As you say, demands on managers from players, agents etc. have changed with the 'modern' game, but that's absolutely no 'get-out clause' for Clough. Every single manager has to deal with this nowadays, and if Clough can't handle it he's in the wrong job. Sure, modern players 'earn thousands of pounds per week' but, as we saw again yesterday, most of them are fucking pussies. Burns, Mackay, Keane etc. were hard bastards and wouldn't have stood for NC's ineffective tactics, blatant favouritism and constant media excuses. Not for a minute.

Yes Nigel has taken certain characteristics from Brian - pig-headed obstinacy, curtness in dealing with the press, a 'my way or highway' mentality, not suffering fools gladly etc. Darren Ferguson displayed the same traits as this and it was possibly inherited. But...

...Brian and Alex earned the right to behave like that by being exceptional at what they were employed to do - winning. Clough (and Darren) have had extremely underwhelming managerial careers (esp. NC) and would do better to keep quiet until they can point to a run of success in their chosen field.

Spot on post grafi. I would add in my opinion that we are in a different era from Brian and Alex's. They were good at bucking the system then to become successful, unfortunately their methods then are not transferable to today's "modern" finance fueled game. To be a sucess in today's game the two sons need to be their own man, proof is whilst displaying the traits of their father they have both failed to emulate any sucess of note.
 
But he is not sending them out to win, not even at home to Crewe. A point will make him content.
In Clough's mind, he is sending them our to win. However the lack of tempo and belief from the players would suggest that the players aren't sure how to win
 

In my opinion Clough has already failed this season even if we go up.

The Board's 5 year plan, backed up with plenty of cash, is to get to the Prem in 5 years.

Clough has not developed a good enough squad or convinced anywhere near enough fans that he is capable of taking this set of players to challenge for promotion to the Premiership in the forseeable future, to say nothing of recruiting players good enough to play in the Prem in due course. Nowhere near good enough scouting system or playing systems.
 
In my opinion Clough has already failed this season even if we go up.

In your eyes purely because you can't get past the fact you don't like the bloke or his set up. I don't know whether he is right but if we get promotion then he has achieved the first step and this should be deemed a success. No one is asking how Bournemouth or Brentford or the filth got promoted are they? All that matters is promotion. We get it and Clough has succeeded, we don't and he has failed. Whether he gets another go next season is in the hands of others. This is how it should be. I have no beef if he gets the chop at the end of the season if we don't go up.
 
In Clough's mind, he is sending them our to win. However the lack of tempo and belief from the players would suggest that the players aren't sure how to win
A natural consequence when you rule by fear,stifle debate by weeding out dissenters and replacing them with less troublesome types and publicly name and shame to avoid accepting any responsibility yourself. Our players are paralysed with fear right now and are frozen to the spot whenever some likely lads from Fleetwood, Oldham, Walsall or Crewe simply run at them with the ball or throw it into the box and get after it. If they can't cope with the levels of motivation on show for regular season games-and time after time they've shown they can't-how on Earth do people expecting a POF victory think they'll go when faced with the problem x2?
 
In your eyes purely because you can't get past the fact you don't like the bloke or his set up. I don't know whether he is right but if we get promotion then he has achieved the first step and this should be deemed a success. No one is asking how Bournemouth or Brentford or the filth got promoted are they? All that matters is promotion. We get it and Clough has succeeded, we don't and he has failed. Whether he gets another go next season is in the hands of others. This is how it should be. I have no beef if he gets the chop at the end of the season if we don't go up.


Yes you have rightly changed your tune, nothing wrong with that.

Thing about Bournemouth and Brentford last season is that they went up with some style, a positive approach, good squads and hungry managers and players. They scored loads of goals and went up there with confidence and momentum. Thank you again, they are two examples of exactly what I am talking about.

As for Wednesday, they sneaked up with a poor squad and have struggled ever since. Maybe they are consolidating now and may go on. It's the Board's ambition to do better than that though.
 
But he is not sending them out to win, not even at home to Crewe. A point will make him content.

We all know were we are going wrong with selections , tactics , recruitment , etc . IMO Clough sets the team up not to lose a game , because this game changing investment as brought us a squad of non game changing players . Clough has not got the knowledge , experience with his back room staff ( including his brother ) to ensure average players become good league 1 players , to push for promotion as a unit . He has taken a punt on a number of players working on the pretence of its better the devil you know , than don't know , and it has unfortunately back fired . I can see us being over run by Barnsley , Doncaster , Chesterfield , as tactically we are still very poor . It could come down to the last game at the Lane , with a big crowd , but never mind the Crewe moment previously , lets hope its not a Walsall moment , from many years ago . We got out of this division then , but we went down not up . Times change but principle stay the same .

I am a very pro Clough supporter , and a top six is not a devine right or a certainty . What has got me , is that the fall out from all this , is that the supporters ain't enjoying there football , and it seems the same with the players.

Is it fear outright , or a mix of this , with a realisation , that a number of players , like the management , cannot hack it , in league 1 . These players will be on there way next season whether we are in League 1 or the championship anyway , so perhaps half the team couldn't care a flying fuck , as there future , like Clough , may have gone past the point of no return.

UTB
 
Thing about Bournemouth and Brentford last season is that they went up with some style, a positive approach, good squads and hungry managers and players. They scored loads of goals and went up there with confidence and momentum. Thank you again, they are two examples of exactly what I am talking about.

As for Wednesday, they sneaked up with a poor squad and have struggled ever since. Maybe they are consolidating now and may go on. It's the Board's ambition to do better than that though.

I agree with this. It's no good just 'limping over the line', by the time the play-offs have been and gone there's precious few weeks left to recruit, readjust etc. and the excuses just keep on coming.

Wolves last season and Bristol this season grabbed the division by the bollocks from day one. This means everybody is playing 'catch up' and there's far less chance of visiting teams being set up for/expecting victory which is the situation we've been in for most of this season.
 
As you say, demands on managers from players, agents etc. have changed with the 'modern' game, but that's absolutely no 'get-out clause' for Clough. Every single manager has to deal with this nowadays, and if Clough can't handle it he's in the wrong job. Sure, modern players 'earn thousands of pounds per week' but, as we saw again yesterday, most of them are fucking pussies. Burns, Mackay, Keane etc. were hard bastards and wouldn't have stood for NC's ineffective tactics, blatant favouritism and constant media excuses. Not for a minute.

Yes Nigel has taken certain characteristics from Brian - pig-headed obstinacy, curtness in dealing with the press, a 'my way or highway' mentality, not suffering fools gladly etc. Darren Ferguson displayed the same traits as this and it was possibly inherited. But...

...Brian and Alex earned the right to behave like that by being exceptional at what they were employed to do - winning. Clough (and Darren) have had extremely underwhelming managerial careers (esp. NC) and would do better to keep quiet until they can point to a run of success in their chosen field.

I agree entirely, the point I was trying to make was that what was affective in the Brian Clough era will not work with today's namby pamby footballers and their mercenary agents. Sadly, I think NC is too stubborn to accept that, which is to the detriment of Sheffield United :(
 
If you rule by fear the lads will not perform when the chips are down.

Managers light a fire under people

Leaders light a fire inside people.

To me, Clough is way too far on the berating, fear invoking, hair dryer treatment position and that's why our lads are not pissing on teams we should be and scoring shed fulls of goals.
 
Have I? From what to what?


Over the months you have gone from complete faith in Clough as one of his biggest supporters to one who "doesn't know whether he is right" and having no beef if we sack him at the end of the season. You were the man I named "Board slasher and Clough clapper" right until January. You were so convinced he was labouring under severe budget constraints when he wasn't and you consistently blamed the Board instead of judging him on what he was doing. You have changed your mind and have backed off. You no longer say he will produce the goods though you rightly say he should be given to the end of the season as a matter of principle.
 
If the board sack him now and we fail to get up they will be seen in a poor light - especially having failed to make a difference when Wilson was sacked, when they should have had a proper replacement lined up or stuck with it - it's too late now anyway with 7 to go.

If they let Clough go to the end of the season and we fail to get up then he will be sacked (and can fuck off to ignominy, for me given the backing he has had) and there will be a legitimate scapegoat. Having said that will another season in this shit league cripple us? Will the Prince fuck off and invest elsewhere?

If we manage to limp into the play offs and by some miracle get up then I will still have concerns about what's going on in the back room cos this squad of players should be punching far higher than this. BTW this is by far the least likely of these three scenarios from what I have observed.
 
Whatever we do, please, please don't even think about Morgan as a candidate for the job. Listen to him at U-21 games, it's embarrassing.
 

Hi woody, remember when you were willing to let the team drop into the forth tier to keep Weir in place so he could change the clubs culture ?
Just seems strange to hear you saying that now you want rid of Clough because we don't kick the ball up front to two big lads all the time .......;)
 

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