80 minutes on the clock.

[Woodwardfan]

It doesn't apply just to United but the 80 minute mark in any game heralds serious change more often than not. Rarely are both sides content with the status quo at that stage of the game though it can be the case at times.

Take Clough,s United as an example. If we are 1 up after 80 minutes the other side will definitely alter their approach and go for broke after probably already having opened up the game to a degree after say 70 minutes. Clough will anticipate that and alter his own tactics to counter the aggression from the opposition. Many say we start to panic and go deeper and deeper and less and less willing to push men forward. Fact is the opposition are deliberately altering the balance of the game because they have nothing to lose. When the pressure mounts on our defence many might say it is self inflicted and our players are bottling it again. When the opposition close you down hard and fast in your own half it is extremely difficult to put moves together. If you do break past that high line though on the break, then opportunities occur to add to the lead.

If we are losing 1-0 on 80 minutes Clough s United are fit enough to go for the opposition's throats. We have turned a few games round this season and all credit to the manager and players. We are helped by having probably the strongest bench in the division.

Point of this OP is to point out that they are the same United players in those last 10 minutes plus extra time allowed, whether they are defending a lead or striving for a winner or equaliser. The momentum changes in the late stages and so many points are won and lost after even 86 minutes. The other night Liverpool turned a deficit into a victory after the 86th minute just like us.

The art of management is to motivate and teach players to see a game out when in front. Also to change personnel, formations and tactics when losing or drawing games we hope to win.

If in front: Don't give away the ball, cheap free kicks, easy corners. Play your defined role within the team and play solid.

When at home we fans contribute to the tension. United fans are great at getting behind a rally in the final stages, but we are awful when we are under the cosh, clinging on. Fans in general voice their fears a nd round on players who make late mistakes. It is human nature but counterproductive. The other week the fans booed when we were wasting time with ten minutes to go against lowly Crawley, that was a strange one as our results were poor at that time.

Fact is the tense, scary finales are inevitable if we can't put the game to rest. Most teams are capable of mounting a late charge when they have nothing to lose. Successful teams handle it. Overall we are doing well in the late stages.

 

[forza sampdoria]

Good Post...agree.

How may time mid Man Utd score in the last few minutes / injury time during their successful 20 years.

They managed it well and did not give up unto the final whistle, always looking for an opportunity to score. Come to think of it, just look at any team getting promotion, they will have no doubt a high percentage of goals scored in the last few minutes, which is why the possibly edge out the other teams.

 

[Bladesway]

One of the biggest factors for me is we haven't been fit enough to push on when the opposition has been tired in the past. Clough appears to have the players fitter and in bringing Higdon on in the second half has a player who may not have been 100% fit but only has to bust his balls for 30 or so minutes. Its smart management whether by default or design.

In Clough I think we have the smartest manager since Warnock. He knows what he wants and knows how to get it. This is why he can get more out of supposed average players. This season has taken time to get going but you feel the momentum of the team gathering pace. We aren't steamrollering anyone and we are still a couple of players away from where we would ideally like to be but considering he has lost his best centre half we are doing pretty well. Higdon is gathering confidence and the players seem better/more able to find him in dangerous positions. As a goal scorer you need this. I have said for some time that perhaps it isn't the 20 goal per season striker we need but the players to put it on a plate for him.

It seems to be working and the team seems to fit. All down to the right tactics and management by the manager. He has done it so far without breaking the bank and well done to him for that.

We need to up our quality however if we are to maintain our push and that is the next challenge. I think for once we have a manager capable of doing it but the Jury is out on whether the funds are there to help him.

 

[grafikhaus]

Some good points, Woodwardfan. For me, it's not necessarily about fitness, the strength of our bench, crowd etc. It's that we just don't come down the tunnel geared up to 'get into' the opposition. The latest example was on Tuesday. Everybody says our attempts etc. in the first half at MKD amounted to zilch. After half-time, United 'tore into MKD.' (Well, according to The Express...). So for me, it's pre-game motivation/tactics that are to blame. I'm sure Southampton won't notice...

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[Mustela Putorius Furo]

Good Post...agree.

How may time mid Man Utd score in the last few minutes / injury time during their successful 20 years.

They managed it well and did not give up unto the final whistle, always looking for an opportunity to score. Come to think of it, just look at any team getting promotion, they will have no doubt a high percentage of goals scored in the last few minutes, which is why the possibly edge out the other teams.

Ferguson had specific tactics for the last 10 minutes if they were behind, and because they worked, they'd specifically rehearse their approach in training.

Always begged the question to me: "Well, why not just employ those tactics from the first minute, if they win you games?"

 

[SouthEssexBlade]

Ferguson had specific tactics for the last 10 minutes if they were behind, and because they worked, they'd specifically rehearse their approach in training.

Always begged the question to me: "Well, why not just employ those tactics from the first minute, if they win you games?"

1. It generally means playing at a higher tempo, not possible from the start.

2. It involves losing defensive solidity, a gamble worth taking if you are losing, less so at 0-0 with 80+ minutes left.

Some good points, Woodwardfan. For me, it's not necessarily about fitness, the strength of our bench, crowd etc. It's that we just don't come down the tunnel geared up to 'get into' the opposition. The latest example was on Tuesday. Everybody says our attempts etc. in the first half at MKD amounted to zilch. After half-time, United 'tore into MKD.' (Well, according to The Express...). So for me, it's pre-game motivation/tactics that are to blame. I'm sure Southampton won't notice...

View attachment 9719​

See the above.

Also I was at MK the other night and to me it was the typical away performance a manager would want in the first half. Not very inspiring or pretty to watch (I said as much at half-time) but they know doubt did what the manager wanted. Take the sting out of the game, quieten the crowd (not difficult there), keep the ball as much as possible, don't concede. Job done, second half change the tactic slightly push further up with a higher line, compress the play, reduce time on the ball in their own half, seize the initiative.

Southampton will be a different proposition. FIrstly we will be at home so they may well try to do what we did at MK. However, we may not press the play as much as MK did, but sit in more like an away side.

 

[Mustela Putorius Furo]

1. It generally means playing at a higher tempo, not possible from the start.

2. It involves losing defensive solidity, a gamble worth taking if you are losing, less so at 0-0 with 80+ minutes left.

.

I never said it begged a sensible question, just a question... and i was alluding to the logical inconsistency in the concept.

Given how a team like Man Utd played under Ferguson, I'd suggest it's just as hard to up your tempo after 80 minutes of already high tempo play as it is to start at a higher tempo which suggests there's more to it than just tempo (and anyway how do you grade tempo?).

Yep, take the point about the defensive solidity, but if losing the solidity while already behind still resulted in victories, it kind of undermines the need for solidity in the first place.

 

[SouthEssexBlade]

I never said it begged a sensible question, just a question... and i was alluding to the logical inconsistency in the concept.

Given how a team like Man Utd played under Ferguson, I'd suggest it's just as hard to up your tempo after 80 minutes of already high tempo play as it is to start at a higher tempo which suggests there's more to it than just tempo (and anyway how do you grade tempo?).

Yep, take the point about the defensive solidity, but if losing the solidity while already behind still resulted in victories, it kind of undermines the need for solidity in the first place.

Ah, you've moved onto the wonder and appeal of the game. Thankfully tactics, formations, tempo etc are not exact and precise sciences. Sometimes they don't go right, oppositions do the unexpected, players are off form or right on form, referees play their part and other inponderables make their impact.

Don't you just love it?

 

[PeterNdlovu081]

Some good points, Woodwardfan. For me, it's not necessarily about fitness, the strength of our bench, crowd etc. It's that we just don't come down the tunnel geared up to 'get into' the opposition. The latest example was on Tuesday. Everybody says our attempts etc. in the first half at MKD amounted to zilch. After half-time, United 'tore into MKD.' (Well, according to The Express...). So for me, it's pre-game motivation/tactics that are to blame. I'm sure Southampton won't notice...

View attachment 9719​

Higdon scored in the 93rd minute on Tuesday.

 

[grafikhaus]

Higdon scored in the 93rd minute on Tuesday.

So he did. (90+2.24). Memo to self: Don't use newspaper times, but check on the OS first!

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[Bergen Blade]

So he did. (90+2.24). Memo to self: Don't use newspaper times, but check on the OS first!

View attachment 9726​

He does seem to love 0-0 at half time, Clough, certainly in away games. A couple of times we've achieved that but then conceded early in the second half, which has made him say things like: "We told the players at half time - do not concede an early goal, and then [someone] makes a mistake and they're one nil up." It's almost comical that he seems to warn them about something that basic, but it probably shows his thinking that he doesn't want to be chasing the game, as he's confident we can get the winner if we're being patient and gradually attack more.

 

[Revolution]

As a matter of interest, what does the graph for when we concede goals look like? Is there a bias towards a particular half like with goals scored?

Interesting that Clough acknowledged in his interview that some people want 2 up front, but went on to say that 1 up is the best way to play at the moment. He's certainly getting the results that way at present.

 

[boo radley]

He does seem to love 0-0 at half time, Clough, certainly in away games. A couple of times we've achieved that but then conceded early in the second half, which has made him say things like: "We told the players at half time - do not concede an early goal, and then [someone] makes a mistake and they're one nil up." It's almost comical that he seems to warn them about something that basic, but it probably shows his thinking that he doesn't want to be chasing the game, as he's confident we can get the winner if we're being patient and gradually attack more.

If what you say is true then that is why some find it boring. Personally I think some of the football we play is fantastic. Always at teams or trying to take control of the game. A squad who's depth seems to be forgotten (Collins/Davies etc). With players who are learning the game in a patient way. To me it all looks fairly solid If players drop their performance then there is someone to take their place.

 

[grafikhaus]

As a matter of interest, what does the graph for when we concede goals look like? Is there a bias towards a particular half like with goals scored?

Fuck me! You don't want much do you? And yes, I'll be adding FA Cup when it starts. And no, I won't be adding JPT as it's meaningless. Anything else? Colour of opposition scorers hair? Favourite food?

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[Revolution]

Thanks grakifhaus.

One conclusion I draw from all this is that the idiots who leave games before full time are making an even bigger mistake than usual this season.

 

[grafikhaus]

True Rev, and summat I've never understood - like leaving a film before it ends.

I suppose you could argue that anybody who turns up before half time is an idiot...

 

[grafikhaus]

A variation on a theme. So, we invariably concede more in the first half (League) and easily out-score the opposition from the hour mark onwards. Are you watching, Nigel?

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[Woodwardfan]

High quality thread is this one, thanks everybody.