Loanee brilliance over lower league journeymen?

[Gordon cowans]

Our team is absolute crying out for some flair and vision,our only chance of game changing talent is maybe a couple of loans from Chelsea/arsenal/Manchesters youth.
Our playing surface and crowd sizes should surely make us a very appealing option for the big guns to let there prospects gain valuable match time and experience but we never seem to get the prime cuts.
Who will we seriously bring in with our budget thats going to unlock them stingy defences that continuously turn up hoping for a point.
Lets say he has 1m this summer who could we hope for and which position is priority?,bringing us back to the loan option to help us out?

 

[Kev Gee]

No emergency loans so we have to loan for 6 months or the season.
I would rather we just buy up the 3 or 4 best players in the league. Loaning a Prem youngster is always a gamble.
We need the best players L1 has in order to escape.

 

[BeatleBlade]

I reckon it'll be a mix of both. I think Adkins wants players with experience who have proven they can handle 40 games a season in order to give him a settled side. I reckon they'll sign a few long term loans though of young players, if they can afford it.

 

[Ricky]

First of all, no way should the club dismiss the loan market. The reason they've not worked out for us recently is because we've loaned the wrong types of players. Apparently Adkins tried for younger, better ones like Murphy who went to Coventry, but we weren't the preferred choice for the parent clubs due to the state we're in. That should change in the summer and subsequently our ability to sign such players should improve. It would be stupid to waste that opportunity.

We should have the pick of all these quality loanees who end up in League One, as long as we can guarantee them regular football. And the good ones aren't hard to identify.

I don't know why they're changing the loan system to the extent they are. The only thing wrong with the current system is that 'emergency' loan windows are open for too long and you can't loan a player for more than 93 days, and these two things go hand in hand. Enable loans till the end of the season in February for example, and you can close the window at least two weeks earlier because clubs wouldn't need to wait.

 

[Sothall_Blade]

I'm struggling to see why we are in less of "a state" and more attractive now we're 10th-12th in League One than we were when we were 7th, 5th and double Cup Semi finalists?

 

[Ricky]

We aren't yet, but in the summer the squad situation should be sorted out, and hopefully the style of play as a result. And we probably won't be looking at another new manager. It would seem unlikely to me too that clubs would be so unwilling to loan us younger players but that was apparently the case.

 

[SwissBlade]

I'm struggling to see why we are in less of "a state" and more attractive now we're 10th-12th in League One than we were when we were 7th, 5th and double Cup Semi finalists?

We've got a fancy pitch where they can wear their yellow and blue boots

 

[dingledog]

?............they can handle 40 games a season in order..............

That's a shame, we will play 46 league games and at least 3 cup games.

 

[Lord Bos of Eckington.]

I'm struggling to see why we are in less of "a state" and more attractive now we're 10th-12th in League One than we were when we were 7th, 5th and double Cup Semi finalists?

Good point. Is it parent clubs of young players don't think Adkins is as good as he thinks he is regarding development, tactics, motivation , discipline etc , . If this season has anything to go by , perhaps they are right.

UTB

 

[robbiez666]

With our youth teams doing so well it will encourage parent clubs to loan to us. It indicates we have good youth coaches. One of the main reasons parent clubs would have been reluctant to loan to us was the size of our squad at the start of the season.

 

[Lord Bos of Eckington.]

With our youth teams doing so well it will encourage parent clubs to loan to us. It indicates we have good youth coaches. One of the main reasons parent clubs would have been reluctant to loan to us was the size of our squad at the start of the season.

It's all smoke and mirrors with successful youth policy . How many players actually made it from the Man U v sheffield U youth cup final.

If the academy and youth players were that good it's seems logic you wouldn't have to loan young players from other clubs.our players are not that good .

Winning at u18 , u21 means jack shit . We may have 1 player out of that lot who will make it. To what I have seen this season of the kids who have stepped up to the first team , they would get us relegated.

Not being cruel to be kind or negative just a realist . pathways and filling a team with youths will not work at BDTBL. Too much expectations perhaps instead of a player learning his trade.

 

[robbiez666]

It's all smoke and mirrors with successful youth policy . How many players actually made it from the Man U v sheffield U youth cup final.

If the academy and youth players were that good it's seems logic you wouldn't have to loan young players from other clubs.our players are not that good .

Winning at u18 , u21 means jack shit . We may have 1 player out of that lot who will make it. To what I have seen this season of the kids who have stepped up to the first team , they would get us relegated.

Not being cruel to be kind or negative just a realist . pathways and filling a team with youths will not work at BDTBL. Too much expectations perhaps instead of a player learning his trade.

My point was that having that success demonstrates the facilities and coaching we have which can improve young loanees. As for the academy, both youth teams are young. Players may not be ready yet but give it a year or two.

 

[larkymasher]

It's all smoke and mirrors with successful youth policy . How many players actually made it from the Man U v sheffield U youth cup final.

If the academy and youth players were that good it's seems logic you wouldn't have to loan young players from other clubs.our players are not that good .

Winning at u18 , u21 means jack shit . We may have 1 player out of that lot who will make it. To what I have seen this season of the kids who have stepped up to the first team , they would get us relegated.

Not being cruel to be kind or negative just a realist . pathways and filling a team with youths will not work at BDTBL. Too much expectations perhaps instead of a player learning his trade.

What kids have you watched come through? Whiteman for 2 games, Kelly for 5 minutes, DCL for one full game all this with playing in a shit first team.
i do agree that youth on its own will not work but give the 16/17 year olds a bit more credit.

We have had 3 19 year old centre backs on trial from premier league clubs who have been released. They have been earning £2/3K a week since the age of 16 and have not been anywhere near the quality of or younger centre backs who earn £90 as scholars the club already has.

The academy will produce players but its not a click of the fingers solution.

 

[HeCanDoMagic]

What a load of rubbish all this is.

Loans, permanent, old, young. I don't give two shiny shits.

Just sign good players who are better than we already have. That should be the only transfer model needed.

 

[Ricky]

What kids have you watched come through? Whiteman for 2 games, Kelly for 5 minutes, DCL for one full game all this with playing in a shit first team.
i do agree that youth on its own will not work but give the 16/17 year olds a bit more credit.

We have had 3 19 year old centre backs on trial from premier league clubs who have been released. They have been earning £2/3K a week since the age of 16 and have not been anywhere near the quality of or younger centre backs who earn £90 as scholars the club already has.

The academy will produce players but its not a click of the fingers solution.

What's happening with Nathaniel Oseni, one of the centre halves we had on trial? He's a bit older than 19 I think.

 

[Esablade]

It's crying out for some serious scouting/sourcing of players...dib dib dib..come in Mr Turnbull!

 

[larkymasher]

What's happening with Nathaniel Oseni, one of the centre halves we had on trial? He's a bit older than 19 I think.

Never seen sight nor sign of him since but he is no better that the lads coming through at the club anyway, except his wage demands are through the roof for a lad that hasn't even played u21s football at his former club and he has reached the ceiling in terms of ability.

We all seem to assume that because players are at or have been at Premier League Academies they are better than we have.

 

[BushBlade]

Never seen sight nor sign of him since but he is no better that the lads coming through at the club anyway, except his wage demands are through the roof for a lad that hasn't even played u21s football at his former club and he has reached the ceiling in terms of ability.

We all seem to assume that because players are at or have been at Premier League Academies they are better than we have.

True. If they were any good they wouldn't be having trials with us. They'd either be getting contracts with their parent clubs or attracting attention from other clubs in the higher divisions.
In a post recently I defended agents, saying they were a lot more professional than they used to be, but you wonder what they tell these kids who think they're going to earn £3k a week as a totally unproven player. 'Dilly ding dilly dong, wake up' might be a start.

 

[mattbianco1]

Our team is absolute crying out for some flair and vision,our only chance of game changing talent is maybe a couple of loans from Chelsea/arsenal/Manchesters youth.
Our playing surface and crowd sizes should surely make us a very appealing option for the big guns to let there prospects gain valuable match time and experience but we never seem to get the prime cuts.
Who will we seriously bring in with our budget thats going to unlock them stingy defences that continuously turn up hoping for a point.
Lets say he has 1m this summer who could we hope for and which position is priority?,bringing us back to the loan option to help us out?

Manchester United have a lot to answer for - Michael Twiss, Lee Martin and John Cofie

 

[Grappler]

Manchester United have a lot to answer for - Michael Twiss, Lee Martin and John Cofie

Totally agree Matt, there was a time when you would have thought "great!", when someone said we were getting a young loan player from Manchester United, but Cofie proved that it means nothing.

 

[larkymasher]

Academy football goes in cycles just as junior football in the sense that one particular age group which is strong can come around every 4 or 5 years. in between these years the quality is just not there .... hence it is impossible to produce players of a good level year after year.

What the Academy has at the moment is a bunch of 16/17 year olds who may just be good enough to supplement the first team..

We need to see them develop, some quicker than others.

for our club this should be exciting. I for one would rather these boys pushed harder, rather than just sign 19 year old rejects from the Premier League Clubs which will, in effect stunt their progress.

 

[Grappler]

Academy football goes in cycles just as junior football in the sense that one particular age group which is strong can come around every 4 or 5 years. in between these years the quality is just not there .... hence it is impossible to produce players of a good level year after year.

What the Academy has at the moment is a bunch of 16/17 year olds who may just be good enough to supplement the first team..

We need to see them develop, some quicker than others.

for our club this should be exciting. I for one would rather these boys pushed harder, rather than just sign 19 year old rejects from the Premier League Clubs which will, in effect stunt their progress.

"... I for one would rather these boys pushed harder, rather than just sign 19 year old rejects from the Premier League Clubs which will, in effect stunt their progress....."


Agreed - unless that 19 year old was someone like Paul Pogba of course!

 

[1danewhitehouse]

It's all smoke and mirrors with successful youth policy . How many players actually made it from the Man U v sheffield U youth cup final.

If the academy and youth players were that good it's seems logic you wouldn't have to loan young players from other clubs.our players are not that good .

Winning at u18 , u21 means jack shit . We may have 1 player out of that lot who will make it. To what I have seen this season of the kids who have stepped up to the first team , they would get us relegated.

Not being cruel to be kind or negative just a realist . pathways and filling a team with youths will not work at BDTBL. Too much expectations perhaps instead of a player learning his trade.

Depends what you call making it.


Maguire

Kennedy

Slew

Long

McFadzean

Pogba

Morrison

Keane (X2)

Lingaard

Johnstone

Thorpe

Fornasier

Tunnicliffe

Van Velzen

Cole

Blackett



are still professional footballers and one of them is amongst the best in world football. I think Morrison could have been too if it wasn’t for all his issues. Basically every member of that Man United team that we didn’t subsequently sign is still a professional footballer.



I’m sure we’ll produce some professionals out of the current crop. The problem is I’m not seeing many coming through who seem to have the outstanding physical attributes that were extremely apparent in the likes of Pogba and Morrison, and to some extent Maguire and Slew even then. We seem to be producing lots of neat and tidy footballers who are not exceptional athletes (more like the Matt Harriett type of player).


The last we had that looked physically better than their peers were Maguire and Slew. DCL looks like he could develop into a powerful athlete but has a way to go.


I don’t see anyone with the explosive pace or power to make me think we’re bringing through the next Kyle Walker any time soon. Lots of neat and tidy footballers who might make a career.


As for future use of the market. I would like to see us capitalize on every possible advantage and you would think the combination of the stadium, training facilities, the positivity and reputation of Adkins and his staff, the quality of the pitch etc. would all be advantageous in terms of attracting these youths on loan. I’d love to see us pick up another Matt Phillips or Connor Coady for the season but for me, these need to be the icing on the cake. We need to make sure we have a strong core. I don’t want to see us relying on loans for our first choice centre half pairing or our holding midfielder. They should be mainstays that we build around. When we’ve got a solid, efficient team, we could look to add that extra spark in the loan market. Maybe someone like Jerome Sinclair to give us some raw pace to frighten defences.

 

[larkymasher]

When you say the current crop what age are you looking at.

Are you talking the lads currently on the first team bench, or younger.

I think you will see the emergence of younger players than those on the bench at present over the next year. it has got to be along side a strong first team though. All the players you listed had good professionals around them to help there development. At the moment we don't have that. If Adkins does his job right and brings in proper hungry footballers that want to play for our club then that in itself will bring these lads on to develop into what we all hope for.

The point i can make with all honesty is that the young players we have coming through are as good as any other club and all of them have been brought up to know what playing for SUFC is all about. They love the club

 

[BushBlade]

When you say the current crop what age are you looking at.

Are you talking the lads currently on the first team bench, or younger.

I think you will see the emergence of younger players than those on the bench at present over the next year. it has got to be along side a strong first team though. All the players you listed had good professionals around them to help there development. At the moment we don't have that. If Adkins does his job right and brings in proper hungry footballers that want to play for our club then that in itself will bring these lads on to develop into what we all hope for.

The point i can make with all honesty is that the young players we have coming through are as good as any other club and all of them have been brought up to know what playing for SUFC is all about. They love the club

I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion they're as good as any club have?

Don't we play in a league for Cat 2 academies? Are you comparing us to any club in that league or are you saying our players are as good as Chelsea's?

 

[jt64]

OP has it right, use the loan market to get attacking players with a bit of flair and creativity, filling the gap that Murphy created. Adkins' use of it hasn't been great, can easily find permanent CB's or disruptive defensive midfielders which seems like the ideal use of older players on short term deals if they still have legs. Another Coady would have made a huge difference this year

 

[larkymasher]

I understand. Our u18s get a draw away to Reading in the FA Youth Cup conceding in the last minute of injury time. Reading won the Premier League Under 18s this year beating Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs etc.
That says to me we are closer to the CAT1 clubs than people realise.

Put in the mix that Chelsea have 5 English lads playing and 6 foreigners in a normal u18s fixture as apposed to SUFC whose side has 7 lads in the usual starting side that live 20 mins from Shirecliffe , i think it sounds like there is a good group coming through.

As for Cat2 academies, the lads are in the National Final on Monday, again that says they are as good if not better than clubs like Palace, Watford, Hull, The Pigs, Forest, Leeds, QPR, Cardiff, etc.

Please accept i am not saying they are our clubs answer on their own but give the boys and the academy credit when its due. I accept we could always do better, i accept that other Premier League clubs could have better individual players, but what i see is a group of local lads matching other clubs and trying to make their way in the game.

Will they be a Walker or Maguire, i dont really know. Kyle Walker couldn't get a regular game with the U18s at 16/17 years old so they will all develop at different times ........

Sorry to have gone on a bit Bushblade

 

[Cyprus Blade]

Conor Coady fitted an ideal profile - England u/21, good engine and fitness, out of contract at the end of the season,unlikely to get a new contract at Liverpool.

The way the top predator ermm, I mean, premiership clubs collect very good young players in large numbers, many of whom will not feature in their first team squad, it is inevitable there will be some quality (for L1) discards available at reasonable loan deal prices with an option to buy should they get rid (they can enhance the quality of our academy as well as Travis said at the fans forum).

Worth having a look at and worth remembering that younger players tend to have better pace - something we severely lack. Any port in a storm - we should not rule any options out.

 

[BushBlade]

I understand. Our u18s get a draw away to Reading in the FA Youth Cup conceding in the last minute of injury time. Reading won the Premier League Under 18s this year beating Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs etc.
That says to me we are closer to the CAT1 clubs than people realise.

Put in the mix that Chelsea have 5 English lads playing and 6 foreigners in a normal u18s fixture as apposed to SUFC whose side has 7 lads in the usual starting side that live 20 mins from Shirecliffe , i think it sounds like there is a good group coming through.

As for Cat2 academies, the lads are in the National Final on Monday, again that says they are as good if not better than clubs like Palace, Watford, Hull, The Pigs, Forest, Leeds, QPR, Cardiff, etc.

Please accept i am not saying they are our clubs answer on their own but give the boys and the academy credit when its due. I accept we could always do better, i accept that other Premier League clubs could have better individual players, but what i see is a group of local lads matching other clubs and trying to make their way in the game.

Will they be a Walker or Maguire, i dont really know. Kyle Walker couldn't get a regular game with the U18s at 16/17 years old so they will all develop at different times ........

Sorry to have gone on a bit Bushblade

No, good post. Kyle was on loan at Northampton when he was 17 I think.
Personally, I think you're being over optimistic. There were few youth players that could touch Diego when he was 16 and he still hasn't broken through. Hopefully some of them will make it but I think it's unlikely that we've unearthed another Class of '92. Obviously I'd love to be proven wrong.

 

[Cyprus Blade]

I think it's unlikely that we've unearthed another Class of '92. Obviously I'd love to be proven wrong.

I agree. The game has changed since '92 - Travis Binnion pointed out that we had our two best 11 year olds poached I think. We are more probably moving more in to the business of picking up discards from the Cat 1 academies (and poaching from below us of course - eg Che ).