Are the Blades the unluckiest club in the League?

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Injury time goal for Birmingham in the first game of the season.(Kevin Phillips) if it had stayed 0_0 we would have been promoted not them.
 

Silent Blade said:
Two more

1968. We got relegated... 20 years later Ernie Hunt revealed in a Sunday paper that Coventry bribed Southampton players not to win the match in the last game of the 1967-68 season. He said that near the end of the match, a Saints player had a chance that was easier to score than miss but very skilfully missed the sitter.

1962. We finished in 5th place, the FL nominated us, Everton (4th) and Burnley (2nd) to take part in the 1962-63 Fairs Cup but the Fairs Cup committee wanted Everton, Wendy (6th) and Birmingham (17th). Several meetings between the FL and the Fairs Cup committee tried to resolve the argument but in the end Everton was the only English entry in the 1962-63 Fairs Cup
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Another one...

Relegation to the 4th division: One of only two clubs to have ever been relegated with a positive goal difference... and the only club when goal difference was the determining factor (Man City doing it when goal average was what was used to determine position).
 
Darren said:
For the 765th time, we didn't miss out on Europe in 1975. Even had we won at Birmingham, we would not have qualified.
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We'd have finished in what we believed would have been a qualifying position at the beginning of the season, only to accept gracefully (of course) that the rules had changed in the intervening period and therefore we had not qualified for that there new-fangled UEFA cup competition...

So we did miss out on Europe...

in a similar, but not exactly the same way that we've missed out on Europe every season since... there's always a catch..like not being fucking good enough, for instance. It's a fix I tell ya, it's a fix!!!
 
"The more we practice, the unluckier we get"................Lee Trevino


bloody 'eck, Darren's on his 765th explanation of something that did/never happened in the post war period, he's explained the Chedgate murder case at least 900 times too, why does he bother with us mere non-lawyers, its quite wasted on us all.

So lets get this straight, we did actually miss out on Europe in 1975 didn't we? That's why we never played Eintracht Frankfurt or Dukla Prague or any other european teams in the UEFA cup in 1976, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong. (my 1st. explanation btw)
 
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coaxingstar71 said:
Inspired by Woodwardfan....


FA Cup Semi 1993
FA Cup Semi 1998

Play off finals

Relegation 1994 - Segers, corruption.
Relegation 2007 - Tevez, Jags, Unsworth penalties, Webber miss.

Missing out on promotion to pigs on goal average 1950
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Cup semis - 93, 98... don't put them down to luck...we didn't turn up. We were crap. That's not luck.

1994 - the "corruption" that many reporters of the game suspected was endemic that year could have relegated any of the bottom 5 that season - results weren't fixed but there was a belief that individual players were influenced. The one game that really came under suspicion was the Blackburn vs Ipswich (0-0) game on the last day which suited both clubs and was apparently "dour". We were unlucky in that things worked out in a way to relegate us, but with 5 minutes to go at Stamford Bridge we were in front, and had it in our hands. That's not bad luck, it's fecking uselessness.

2007 - again can't see "luck" playing a part. It was plain "bent-ness" and cowardice in application of rules and penalties based on a lack of precedence that led to an avoidable situation - act quickly, judge and penalise WHUFC immediately and whatever the outcome at the end of the season there'd have been little fuss (from either WHUFC or SUFC). Bad judgement by the PL, not bad luck for us.


1950... Spurs having pissed the division, there was more than a suspicion of a carve up when Spurs played Wendy for a 0-0 draw on the last day guaranteeing both get promoted, when United were stuffing Hull 5-0.....
 
Oh eck I know what happened. You know how fax machines print out the name of the senders on the incoming fax? - its how my mate got caught using one he'd pinched from a solicitors by getting in through a skylight - well, perhaps Real Madrid took one look at the Man Utd fax, decided they didn't want OUR goalie and ignored it until it was all too late...... (its just a theory)
 
Mustela Putorius Furo said:
1950... Spurs having pissed the division, there was more than a suspicion of a carve up when Spurs played Wendy for a 0-0 draw on the last day guaranteeing both get promoted, when United were stuffing Hull 5-0.....
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We had completed our fixtures a week before Wendy played that match against Spurs. If it had been a 1-1 draw then a play-off between us and Wendy would have been probable. If it was a 2-2 draw then we would have got up
 
vorpal blade said:
? That's why we never played Eintracht Frankfurt
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We did actually play Eintracht Frankfurt in a friendly in '60 or '61 after they had been beaten 7-3 by Real Madrid in the European Cup Final.

18,000 turned up and the programme notes for the next match contained a statement from the Board that they were very disappointed with the attendance and they would think long and hard before arranging such a fixture again!

Eewwww! :confused:
 
BornOnShoreham said:
We did actually play Eintracht Frankfurt in a friendly in '60 or '61 after they had been beaten 7-3 by Real Madrid in the European Cup Final.

18,000 turned up and the programme notes for the next match contained a statement from the Board that they were very disappointed with the attendance and they would think long and hard before arranging such a fixture again!

Eewwww! :confused:
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Thursday 19th October 1961
 
'luck' wont even come into it this year. the board have got it right with adkins and the rest will take care of itself. (thats put the mockers on it eh)
 

Mustela Putorius Furo said:
Didn't we play Dynamo Kiev in a friendly in front of 41.000 in 71/72?
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18,106 on 8th February 1972. Oleg Blokhin was playing for Dynamo Kiev that night. I do not remember him or knew of him at the time. The first I read about him was when he won the European Player of the Year in 1975 and then years later when I read (either in Flashing Blade or the Telegraph Archives) he played against us at BDTBL then I realised I had seen him play!
 
Darren said:
We did play them in Feb 72, but "only" around 20,000ish turned up
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Silent Blade said:
18,106 on 8th February 1972. Oleg Blokhin was playing for Dynamo Kiev that night. I do not remember him or knew of him at the time. The first I read about him was when he won the European Player of the Year in 1975 and then years later when I read (either in Flashing Blade or the Telegraph Archives) he played against us at BDTBL then I realised I had seen him play!
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Thanks fellas... another false memory.... created as a composite of other "real" memories...

so what's the connection with Moshe Dayan....?

I think I'm conflating a number of fixtures and crowds into one event....?????
 
Missed out on promotion due to Leicester going into admin and not being punished - its what brought in the punishments, but couldn't be applied retrospectively.
 
Christ..... reading that lot is depressing (if only because I've witnessed so many of those dismal episodes!). Can't help but wonder if I'm a Jonah..... but, more importantly what 'Positive Nige' would make of such a thread.... I'm hoping he would think "nuts to the past, I'm here to build a bright future and make a name for myself and this (formerly cursed) club!!!"

Bring on the geese.
 
Being 1-1 at Arsenal and then falling to the Kanu/Overmars goal was bizarre. A replay at Highbury after that wasn't useful as we kind of lost all momentum and shock value.

Losing that semi to Arsenal with the assistance of the referee and being denied by the greatest save since 'nam.

Finding Maradona but not being able to afford the very reasonable price.

These things feel unique anyway. I'd love to hear what other clubs would come up with when asked the same question.
 
coaxingstar71 said:
To be fair, I'm expecting a few "that wasn't luck" comments. Personally, apart from Huddersfield, I don't think any of the play off finals were bad luck, more to do with the team playing like dog shit/not turning up*

*delete as applicable
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Mustela Putorius Furo said:
Cup semis - 93, 98... don't put them down to luck...we didn't turn up. We were crap. That's not luck.

1994 - the "corruption" that many reporters of the game suspected was endemic that year could have relegated any of the bottom 5 that season - results weren't fixed but there was a belief that individual players were influenced. The one game that really came under suspicion was the Blackburn vs Ipswich (0-0) game on the last day which suited both clubs and was apparently "dour". We were unlucky in that things worked out in a way to relegate us, but with 5 minutes to go at Stamford Bridge we were in front, and had it in our hands. That's not bad luck, it's fecking uselessness.

2007 - again can't see "luck" playing a part. It was plain "bent-ness" and cowardice in application of rules and penalties based on a lack of precedence that led to an avoidable situation - act quickly, judge and penalise WHUFC immediately and whatever the outcome at the end of the season there'd have been little fuss (from either WHUFC or SUFC). Bad judgement by the PL, not bad luck for us.


1950... Spurs having pissed the division, there was more than a suspicion of a carve up when Spurs played Wendy for a 0-0 draw on the last day guaranteeing both get promoted, when United were stuffing Hull 5-0.....
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As you can see, I was asking if others thought it was luck or not. I agree with you.
1994 - Wasn't the Everton 3-2 Wimbledon game also scrutinised after Wimbledon went 2-0 then Segers let in 3 soft goals to ensure Everton stayed up?
2007 - I was more referring to our own game with Wigan where Jags inexplicably gave away a penalty then Webber hits the post as we battered them in the 2nd half.
1950 - Did not know that - very interesting.
 
coaxingstar71 said:
As you can see, I was asking if others thought it was luck or not. I agree with you.
1994 - Wasn't the Everton 3-2 Wimbledon game also scrutinised after Wimbledon went 2-0 then Segers let in 3 soft goals to ensure Everton stayed up?
2007 - I was more referring to our own game with Wigan where Jags inexplicably gave away a penalty then Webber hits the post as we battered them in the 2nd half.
1950 - Did not know that - very interesting.
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94 - the performance of Segers was suspect... in as much as he was implicated in other match fixing incidents, and he can best be described as "crap" that day, even by junior footy standards.......
2007 - strange or excruciating incidents in that game...

are any of those "luck" though? I get where you're coming from...why couldn't Segers have been bent/crap in a different game, why couldn't Jags handle the ball against Newcastle....... ?

if it was just "luck" we'd hope that things would even out - though that would take an infinite universe to prove the influence of luck.... (if poker players gave up through a long series of bad beats there'd be no professional players).

so, if it isn't luck, we have to start thinking we're genuinely victims of "planned" events.... and since they seem to be repeatedly affecting us, we then begin to think there's a real conspiracy against SUFC. I'd prefer that to be the reason because it would explain so much, so simply and excuse all the errors we think the club has made itself. But that's just clutching at straws....


Now, before 'Arry became our manager, there was no general antipathy towards us - we'd become pretty insignificant and irrelevant having previously been an "interesting" club.

Bassett created a rebel, backs-to-the-wall spirit within the club and certainly upset a few of the establishment and others outside the club, but I don't think it was ever sufficient to warrant a feeling of people genuinely working against our interests - merely that we were a chip-on-the-shoulder annoyance to many.

But with Warnock in charge... exacerbating that previous perspective built by 'Arry, I'm pretty sure that the games' authorities couldn't wait for us to fail, and certainly didn't "favour" us in anyway. But that's a long way from actively conspiring against us. I always thought that Warnock cost us 6 points a season because of the automatic antagonism of referees towards us - but not intentionally, just down to natural response of humans to Warnock's attitude and game play.


In the greater scheme of things, even via some independent arbiter and judge of "luck", there will be one club out of the 140 or so clubs that have ever been in the league that has had things work against them more than the rest - there'll be a league table of "luck" if you like, and maybe it's us at the bottom of it currently.

If it is purely down to luck then it will eventually tend towards all clubs being in the same position in that "luck" league.... by the end of the universe.

So, maybe it's not United that is the unluckiest, but this generation of fans of SUFC that are the unluckiest cos we've witnessed the bad beats and won't live for ever to see the luck balance out!!!!!

Bugger.
 
hello said:
Worst ever for me..Givens1981,Simonsen 2012. Unbelievable that someone so maligned as,a goalkeeper should have come forward to take the crucial penalty..only for the ball to land in Sheffield two hours later. Humiliating, just sums up our blasted curse.
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Oh god, the name Don Givens is etched into my memory. Martin Peters was boss at the time (I'm pretty sure). There was a picture of Peters in the Green 'Un or Sheffield Star with a look of sheer horror on his face when Givens missed that penalty.
 
I don't think United are the unluckiest team.

I think we are the team with more failures in "must win" games than any other. Look at these post war achievements:

Relegated on the last day of the season in 1949, 1968, 1981, 1984 and 2007.

Been in the playoffs 8 times and never won, including a record 4 final defeats in which we have not scored a single goal.

Lost 7 straight Cup semi finals in 1961, 1993, 1998, 2003 (twice), 2014 and 2015.

On each of these occasions other teams have done what they needed to do. We didn't. The only post war exceptions are 1971 and 1990, when promotion went to the last game and we won, and 1984, when someone else failed.

It's a pitiful record. I have been supporting United for 37 years and only once, at Leicester, have they won a must win game.

How much better our history would be if we'd have win just one game in each category. At least 2 more top flight seasons and a cup final...and maybe more. Time and time again we have the chance to rise above mediocrity, and we do not take it.

Is any of this bad luck? 2012 maybe. The rest is just failure.
 

Mustela Putorius Furo said:
94 - the performance of Segers was suspect... in as much as he was implicated in other match fixing incidents, and he can best be described as "crap" that day, even by junior footy standards.......
2007 - strange or excruciating incidents in that game...

are any of those "luck" though? I get where you're coming from...why couldn't Segers have been bent/crap in a different game, why couldn't Jags handle the ball against Newcastle....... ?

if it was just "luck" we'd hope that things would even out - though that would take an infinite universe to prove the influence of luck.... (if poker players gave up through a long series of bad beats there'd be no professional players).

so, if it isn't luck, we have to start thinking we're genuinely victims of "planned" events.... and since they seem to be repeatedly affecting us, we then begin to think there's a real conspiracy against SUFC. I'd prefer that to be the reason because it would explain so much, so simply and excuse all the errors we think the club has made itself. But that's just clutching at straws....


Now, before 'Arry became our manager, there was no general antipathy towards us - we'd become pretty insignificant and irrelevant having previously been an "interesting" club.

Bassett created a rebel, backs-to-the-wall spirit within the club and certainly upset a few of the establishment and others outside the club, but I don't think it was ever sufficient to warrant a feeling of people genuinely working against our interests - merely that we were a chip-on-the-shoulder annoyance to many.

But with Warnock in charge... exacerbating that previous perspective built by 'Arry, I'm pretty sure that the games' authorities couldn't wait for us to fail, and certainly didn't "favour" us in anyway. But that's a long way from actively conspiring against us. I always thought that Warnock cost us 6 points a season because of the automatic antagonism of referees towards us - but not intentionally, just down to natural response of humans to Warnock's attitude and game play.


In the greater scheme of things, even via some independent arbiter and judge of "luck", there will be one club out of the 140 or so clubs that have ever been in the league that has had things work against them more than the rest - there'll be a league table of "luck" if you like, and maybe it's us at the bottom of it currently.

If it is purely down to luck then it will eventually tend towards all clubs being in the same position in that "luck" league.... by the end of the universe.

So, maybe it's not United that is the unluckiest, but this generation of fans of SUFC that are the unluckiest cos we've witnessed the bad beats and won't live for ever to see the luck balance out!!!!!

Bugger.
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Much of the above post uses the common, literal interpretation of the word luck. This discussion was played out in a thread about one of Deadbat's reports about whether Blackpool were unlucky to hit the post with a free kick. I'd say literally No they were not but idiomatically Yes they were.

This idiomatic sense is a (mis)use of the word luck which is common throughout football, sport, and sometimes with enormous disastrous consequences, life.

So if you agree Blackpool were unlucky to hit the post that day, then United are an incredibly unlucky team.

Otoh, if your use of the word luck is more usual of one of pure chance then I think it's fair to say that the free kick was not unlucky, and that United are not an unlucky team. If for no other reason than luck is blind - in the long run no team is (significantly) more unlucky than any other.

Essentially it's possible to both agree and disagree with the OP; it depends on which definition of the word luck you are using.
  • Using luck in the idiomatic sense then you can make a strong case that Yes United are the unluckiest team in the League.
  • Using luck in the toss of a coin, random events in a pitiless universe sense then No, United are not the unluckiest team in the League.



(Fwiw, for me this idea of luck evening itself out is a useful one, and it would save a lot of wasted energy if in many circumstances we stopped trying to micro-manage fairness and let events play out.)
 
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