Was that really Clough's fault?

[crucialkneeligaman]

All this about being negative and sitting back is crap. Who would you prefer up front for the last 10 minutes defending a 1-0 lead ,Done who is absolutely knackered and had run himself out ,Adams who has played about 3 games at this level or Murphy our top scorer who can run with the ball and pressure tired defenders ?
Clough didn't know Flynns hamstring was going to go ,that's just bad luck or he would have done things differently. Bad goalkeeping and defending in the last 2 minutes cost us ,not negative substitutions.

Sorry Sitwell, can't agree on this one, how long had Matty Done to last ?, 5 mins plus injury time ?, he hardly looked knackered to me. Whereas, Flynny looked buggered well before the injury that reduced him to a passenger, so for me Clough should have been aware of that and subbed him. Your right about the defending, though personally I didn't think we played that badly throughout the match, especially first half, just cannot seem to create and finish chances.

 

[crucialkneeligaman]

Yes, Turner was terrible for the first but then the player should have been closed down earlier. Bad all round.

The defending was dreadful for the second. J-Mac, Basham and Harris.

But the reason we were under pressure was Clough. Take off outlets up front and just allow them to pressurise us. Daft.

Which is a shame because Bash and Harris had been two of our better players on the night. We really should have taken advantage of that donkey (22) in their defence though, more than once.

 

[DazBlade88]

Sorry Sitwell, can't agree on this one, how long had Matty Done to last ?, 5 mins plus injury time ?, he hardly looked knackered to me. Whereas, Flynny looked buggered well before the injury that reduced him to a passenger, so for me Clough should have been aware of that and subbed him. Your right about the defending, though personally I didn't think we played that badly throughout the match, especially first half, just cannot seem to create and finish chances.

If he didn't look knackered to you, I think you were looking at the wrong player. He was blowing out of his arse.

 

[Bladesway]

I do my share of handing out drinks like every Blade, always there to get the first round, just like you LSF.

The "damning conclusions" were an adjunct to my post about Nigel's Dad. I seriously believe management teams are about the blend of characters and a sum total of accumulated skills.

Clough/ Garner/ Morgan/ Brannigan/ Clough ( the brother) are much of a like with like to me, all old-fashioned, old school. Cronies in modern day terms - could never happen under Equal Opportunities in other industries in modern times.

Clough Senior ( the maverick, the genius, the one-off) and his assistant Peter Taylor ( the boring old fart, the pragmatist, the dead-pan foil to his boss).

We've got a group of clones.

We get it, you don't like them, you have mentioned it a million times. You give them pelters for just about everything and credit them for nothing. Sometimes a bit of balance is called for. It can't always be the fault of them not smiling or patting everyone on the head.

 

[Silent Blade]

Sorry Sitwell, can't agree on this one, how long had Matty Done to last ?, 5 mins plus injury time ?, he hardly looked knackered to me.

I could see from the other side of the ground (between G and H block in the South Stand) and could tell that Done was knackered. If you were sat nearer to him then you need your eyes testing. It was unfortunate that Flynn pulled his hammy not long after the substitution

 

[secretchief]

I've seen Hans Segers make more determined efforts to save shots than Turner for the first.

 

[DI36O]

For me, the first quarter of the game we weren't bad at all, just needed to penetrate a bit more. The strikers needed to be brought into play. As the half wore on it was clear that McNulty and Coutts were just not turning up, the latter giving the ball away far too regularly.

We learned after the game that Coutts was subbed because he was suffering from illness. Why did he start then? It's speculation but I'm wondering if he realised we need more weight in a midfield 2 vs Peterborough and thus took the risk with Coutts. It certainly backfired and so we're left with Holt partnering Doyle which is not sufficient for me.

Given the starting lineup, I'd have subbed Coutts and McNulty too but there's nothing convincing on the bench there (I'm yet to see DCL as far as I remember so can't comment on his merits). I think its a fair point to acknowledge we weren't competing in midfield with P'boro.

There's no surprise Done was shattered either as he'd run his socks off trying to get involved in the game. I had wondered if he could have lasted another 15 mins but it seems sensible at 1-0 to have Freeman and Flynn protecting the full backs. Murphy's caught teams on the break while up front at the end of games before. Adams? Possibly

I'm sure Flynn was tiring too as we were chasing the game like an away side for most of it but the timing of a hamstring was unlucky. Whatever players and formation though, we could have pushed up a little more at 1-0 up. And frankly we should be controlling the better against that level of team. Shame that Harris was at fault with the 2nd goal because for me he had a very good game up until the closing stages.

It all points to a faulty squad though: light up front, too many like for like in midfield, too many injury prone players. It's silly considering the numbers we have.

tl;dr
Risky playing Coutts when ill but who else?
Right to sub McNulty, understandable subbing Done but who else to come on?
Flynn injury unfortunate
Defensive mistakes can happen
We looked tired at a point when we should have either been putting the game to bed or killing it for P'boro.
But...the risk of all of these circumstances arising could have been minimised by picking an appropriate 18 for the game you want to play from a well balanced and generally fit squad.

 

[Woodwardfan]

We get it, you don't like them, you have mentioned it a million times. You give them pelters for just about everything and credit them for nothing. Sometimes a bit of balance is called for. It can't always be the fault of them not smiling or patting everyone on the head.

Cheers Bladesway, you too with your one-liners having little digs at anyone who dares to criticise them. I know you hope Clough will be the man and so do I.

My worry about the way they conduct themselves is that it signifies a degree of panic rather than confident leadership and that it is not the way to get the best out of a team in this day and age. Times have moved on from autocratic, bellowing managers to a more consensual approach, just like business life in general. Certainly the blame dished out to half the team who were named in the post match media interview was an example of what not to do in my opinion. Three young lads were amongst those named and blamed and I do worry what effect it has on them on top of all the public bollockings they got from the touchline. McNulty looked devastated after being bollocked by Clough or Garner at least 12 times during the game.

If you respect that sort of management fair enough. I know McNulty has put on a brave face in interview last week but it really is not necessary. The management have become more and more aggressive as the season has gone more and more wrong.

Having said all that I'll give it a rest for a while, point taken, wouldn't want to become boring.

 

[Bladesway]

Cheers Bladesway, you too with your one-liners having little digs at anyone who dares to criticise them. I know you hope Clough will be the man and so do I.

My worry about the way they conduct themselves is that it signifies a degree of panic rather than confident leadership and that it is not the way to get the best out of a team in this day and age. Times have moved on from autocratic, bellowing managers to a more consensual approach, just like business life in general. Certainly the blame dished out to half the team who were named in the post match media interview was an example of what not to do in my opinion. Three young lads were amongst those named and blamed and I do worry what effect it has on them on top of all the public bollockings they got from the touchline. McNulty looked devastated after being bollocked by Clough or Garner at least 12 times during the game.

If you respect that sort of management fair enough. I know McNulty has put on a brave face in interview last week but it really is not necessary. The management have become more and more aggressive as the season has gone more and more wrong.

Having said all that I'll give it a rest for a while, point taken, wouldn't want to become boring.

I don't do little digs WWF, people generally know how I feel about something good or bad. There have been times we have agreed, times like this where we disagree, its not personal. On this what I said was balance. The amount of people who have publicly stated the man that Nigel Clough is and how highly they rate the man ethically and in his honesty. McNulty has publicly stated he is a big boy and accepts he has much to learn. Do you know what goes off behind closed doors? I would never take seriously what people say to a camera or Journo, but the dressing room seems sound enough and players like Brayford have come to us because of Clough in no small part. Hardly polarising opinion like Warnock used to (and we know how highly rated he was).

If you spend all your time focussing attention on the bollockings being dished out from your position on the bench (I assume) then maybe it would be wiser to spend your time with your eyes on the pitch? Just a thought, after all, I assume that is what you go to see?

If you read what I put rather than just picking the odd line to suit your agenda you would see I think Clough isn't to be without criticism but some people appear to be waiting seven games for that one defeat to stick the knife in. You appear to be one of those observers watching his every move like a stalker waiting your moment.

All I see is the team, for good and for bad. Clough has moved us forward from where we were and now comes the most challenging bit of all, because he needs to deliver. Hopefully this season but lets be frank if we aren't table topping come the early part of next season he will be out of a job. Whether he bollocks people or pats them on the head I really don't care, but I want them to win games and if possible get promotion this season.

 

[grafikhaus]

It's the perennial argument. Who is to blame? Players or manager? It's one that will never be answered but the players can and are shipped out if their performance is deemed to have slipped over a period of time. Managers? They get far more time and, if it goes wrong, a handsome payout.

This isn't me saying 'Clough should go'. It's simply not as black and white as that. However NC has had well over a year, an extremely generous transfer budget by Third Division standards, incredible crowds and yet - Cup runs apart - we're basically standing still. Yes NC had us recovering well after the Weir debacle (although Morgs 'steadied the ship' for 3 games and NC's first nine games only yielded ten points) but, without that burden marring our season this time around, we won't finish on too many more points than last season.

Last season, Weir had ten games and we got four points. This season, after ten games, we had 16 points. However now, after 33 games, we're only nine points better off than this time last season. That's stagnation.

I'd like to think this Saurday will be different. But I doubt it will be.

The 'tactics' are - at best - naive and regularly overcome by so-called 'lesser' teams. The entertainment value is minimal and the less said about most of our transfer dealings the better. The clock is ticking.

 

[Bladesway]

the less said about most of our transfer dealings the better.

Really? Most of our transfer activity has been decent. There needed to be a huge refit after the Weir debacle and Clough has more or less achieved it. I think Clough has a decent record with transfers and the clock is always ticking, that's the way it is. The team he has is pretty young and he is changing the way we do things. Takes time. Lets be honest, we get promoted and all the pressure comes off the bloke. We don't and I think the weight of expectation next season may crush him.

 

[Woodwardfan]

I don't do little digs WWF, people generally know how I feel about something good or bad. There have been times we have agreed, times like this where we disagree, its not personal. On this what I said was balance. The amount of people who have publicly stated the man that Nigel Clough is and how highly they rate the man ethically and in his honesty. McNulty has publicly stated he is a big boy and accepts he has much to learn. Do you know what goes off behind closed doors? I would never take seriously what people say to a camera or Journo, but the dressing room seems sound enough and players like Brayford have come to us because of Clough in no small part. Hardly polarising opinion like Warnock used to (and we know how highly rated he was).

If you spend all your time focussing attention on the bollockings being dished out from your position on the bench (I assume) then maybe it would be wiser to spend your time with your eyes on the pitch? Just a thought, after all, I assume that is what you go to see?

If you read what I put rather than just picking the odd line to suit your agenda you would see I think Clough isn't to be without criticism but some people appear to be waiting seven games for that one defeat to stick the knife in. You appear to be one of those observers watching his every move like a stalker waiting your moment.

All I see is the team, for good and for bad. Clough has moved us forward from where we were and now comes the most challenging bit of all, because he needs to deliver. Hopefully this season but lets be frank if we aren't table topping come the early part of next season he will be out of a job. Whether he bollocks people or pats them on the head I really don't care, but I want them to win games and if possible get promotion this season.

Where I sit it is difficult not to watch the management reactions to all manner of things which happen and over the years it has been interesting. Ironically when Wilson was manager I yearned for more emotion and more crowd interaction, this is different to that though.

I have allowed the antics of Garner and Clough to spoil my match days because I fundamentally disagree with leadership like this. You may recall I went away for a couple of months last September/ October and the point is by the time I returned there was a big swing in their behaviours. Garner always played the grump but generally he exuded positivity and a balance in his body and verbal language. Clough was Mr. Cool rarely venturing away from leaning on the dugout. By November they were in a comaparative frenzy and I noticed the change immediately. They are vindictive and barbed in their criticisms, showing disgust far more often than positivity these days. It just cannot do the team any good and lessons can be taught off the field away from the moment surely. The contrast between their behaviour and every opposition manager is unreal.

I search for signs of progress and reassurance that we will get there in the end. Unfortunately I have grave doubts about Clough on more fronts than this and you know full well I am the one you called a "serial clapper" only last year. If he gets us into the Championship I believe he will keep us up there but in mid-table at the most. His signings and his tactics and man-management are middle of the road and no better. Yes there is loyalty from his past players who easily slot into his environment, though a cynic might say there is a comfort zone here for them which others don't have. Rarely does an ex-Derby man get as many bollockings as the others get it seems.

Anyway, I take your points, I have become worried and obsessed about morale in the squad. I also have to decide whether to change our season ticket seats after some 30 years!! Cheers Bladesway, our "Board slasher and Clough clapper" as I named you months ago.

 

[Pittsburg Blade]

I said at the match that Turner should have easily had the shot for the 1st goal covered. Just seen YouTube and it has confirmed what I had thought

He should have stopped the second as well, also Coventry's first should have been covered. Other than that, he's a decent keeper......

 

[Pittsburg Blade]

I have allowed the antics of Garner and Clough to spoil my match days because I fundamentally disagree with leadership like this.

Can you elaborate on these "antics" Woody?
And which leadership style would you agree with? Are you a Wenger-man?

 

[Cyprus Blade]

Not for me to answer for WWF but he did mention Peter Taylor in the context of some parallels between NC and his father's style. Taylor was an excellent foil for Brian, together they made an impressive pairing.

"I've missed him. He used to make me laugh. He was the best diffuser of a situation I have ever known. I hope he's alright." Cloughie snr on the late Peter Taylor.

Having said that look at the difference between Wenger at pitchside now and when he first went to Arsenal - its quite a change. Pressure does that.

 

[Silent Blade]

He should have stopped the second as well, .

That was harder to stop but the real fault was the mix up between Basham and Harris

 

[Pittsburg Blade]

That was harder to stop but the real fault was the mix up between Basham and Harris

Yeah that's the second time in two home game Harris has "neshed" a vital tackle and conceded a goal.

 

[Silent Blade]

Yeah that's the second time in two home game Harris has "neshed" a vital tackle and conceded a goal.

Thought it was more of a misjudgement than neshed but agree Harris made a similar mistake for Coventry's first goal

 

[Pittsburg Blade]

Thought it was more of a misjudgement than neshed but agree Harris made a similar mistake for Coventry's first goal

Both balls should have been in Row Z along with the corresponding players. . Morgs wouldn't have missed the opportunity....

 

[Silent Blade]

Both balls should have been in Row Z along with the corresponding players. . Morgs wouldn't have missed the opportunity....

I notice Harris takes more risks than other defenders which often make him look like a class defender taking the ball off his opponent in a cool way before looking to pass to a team mate. Think he tried to be clever on these two occasions which backfired on him. Yes Morgan is a no nonsense defender that makes sure the ball is his or that the ball ends in row Z

 

[Pittsburg Blade]

I notice Harris takes more risks than other defenders which often make him look like a class defender taking the ball off his opponent in a cool way before looking to pass to a team mate. Think he tried to be clever on these two occasions which backfired on him. Yes Morgan is a no nonsense defender that makes sure the ball is his or that the ball ends in row Z

As every defender knows. You f*ck around at your peril when you're the last man...

 

[Lord Bos of Eckington.]

Sitwell. You are




Clough's Dad knew a player when he saw one. He had a pragmatic assistant to balance his personal flair and bravado. He gave his players licence to play. Such as Robertson who did not have to run a marathon every match, far far from it, because he delivered quality balls to better players at key times in games.

Robertson was slower, fatter and more unfit than Baxter will ever be. One of my best ever players though.

Yes and he also signed a bloke called Megson.

Utb

 

[Bladesway]

Where I sit it is difficult not to watch the management reactions to all manner of things which happen and over the years it has been interesting. Ironically when Wilson was manager I yearned for more emotion and more crowd interaction, this is different to that though.

I have allowed the antics of Garner and Clough to spoil my match days because I fundamentally disagree with leadership like this. You may recall I went away for a couple of months last September/ October and the point is by the time I returned there was a big swing in their behaviours. Garner always played the grump but generally he exuded positivity and a balance in his body and verbal language. Clough was Mr. Cool rarely venturing away from leaning on the dugout. By November they were in a comaparative frenzy and I noticed the change immediately. They are vindictive and barbed in their criticisms, showing disgust far more often than positivity these days. It just cannot do the team any good and lessons can be taught off the field away from the moment surely. The contrast between their behaviour and every opposition manager is unreal.

I search for signs of progress and reassurance that we will get there in the end. Unfortunately I have grave doubts about Clough on more fronts than this and you know full well I am the one you called a "serial clapper" only last year. If he gets us into the Championship I believe he will keep us up there but in mid-table at the most. His signings and his tactics and man-management are middle of the road and no better. Yes there is loyalty from his past players who easily slot into his environment, though a cynic might say there is a comfort zone here for them which others don't have. Rarely does an ex-Derby man get as many bollockings as the others get it seems.

Anyway, I take your points, I have become worried and obsessed about morale in the squad. I also have to decide whether to change our season ticket seats after some 30 years!! Cheers Bladesway, our "Board slasher and Clough clapper" as I named you months ago.

FWIW I generally agree that a dictatorial leadership style belongs in the past but you have to temper that with the fact that a lot of players come to play for Clough. You missed a trick as I am currently board and clough clapper. The board have proved their mettle in my opinion with the Brayford signing and what they gave given Clough this season. I am nothing if not a fair judge whose mind is there to be changed by a different behaviour. I have seen that from this board.

Whether Clough is the man remains to be seen but if you were to tell me we would be holding our own in the Championship in the next two years with Clough in charge I would snatch your hand off. If he can't take us any further than that then we move along to another manager. This is what happens. But he needs the chance to do his job and not have fans sniping at him every single defeat. If at the end of the season we don't get promoted then the board has a decision to make. If we do then we are all happy. Even you

 

[Woodwardfan]

FWIW I generally agree that a dictatorial leadership style belongs in the past but you have to temper that with the fact that a lot of players come to play for Clough. You missed a trick as I am currently board and clough clapper. The board have proved their mettle in my opinion with the Brayford signing and what they gave given Clough this season. I am nothing if not a fair judge whose mind is there to be changed by a different behaviour. I have seen that from this board.

Whether Clough is the man remains to be seen but if you were to tell me we would be holding our own in the Championship in the next two years with Clough in charge I would snatch your hand off. If he can't take us any further than that then we move along to another manager. This is what happens. But he needs the chance to do his job and not have fans sniping at him every single defeat. If at the end of the season we don't get promoted then the board has a decision to make. If we do then we are all happy. Even you

If I were on the Board I would be looking for the man to take us up both levels. Money spent wisely now can help do the next stage too. 12 months ago Clough looked like that man but oh dear we are looking ragged and dispirited and I would not have believed that such a promising start to Clough's SU career could taper off so quickly. Of course we can win more than our share but we are way off where we should be which IMO is where Bristol are now. Top of the league with our budget should have been within our grasp.

Every so often a serious manager becomes available. I hope S6 don't capture Lambert for example.

As regards the Board, you were slow to believe that they were funding Clough all along and therefore believed that Clough's hands were tied when they weren't. Therefore you have allowed Clough more latitude in your own mind than some of us have, for the best reasons of course. The January spending was an enormous act of faith by the board because it was additional budget on what was expected and asked for a few months earlier.

 

[MiserableBlader]

Cheers Bladesway, you too with your one-liners having little digs at anyone who dares to criticise them. I know you hope Clough will be the man and so do I.

My worry about the way they conduct themselves is that it signifies a degree of panic rather than confident leadership and that it is not the way to get the best out of a team in this day and age. Times have moved on from autocratic, bellowing managers to a more consensual approach, just like business life in general. Certainly the blame dished out to half the team who were named in the post match media interview was an example of what not to do in my opinion. Three young lads were amongst those named and blamed and I do worry what effect it has on them on top of all the public bollockings they got from the touchline. McNulty looked devastated after being bollocked by Clough or Garner at least 12 times during the game.

If you respect that sort of management fair enough. I know McNulty has put on a brave face in interview last week but it really is not necessary. The management have become more and more aggressive as the season has gone more and more wrong.

Having said all that I'll give it a rest for a while, point taken, wouldn't want to become boring.

You should say what you genuinely think.
Not what people want to hear.
That's the point.

 

[Bladesway]

You should say what you genuinely think.
Not what people want to hear.
That's the point.

Words to live by.

 

[crucialkneeligaman]

If he didn't look knackered to you, I think you were looking at the wrong player. He was blowing out of his arse.

Ok, Done was blowing, Flynn was blowing plus he appeared to be struggling more than Done and looked to have taken a few hefty whacks well before the end, so who do you sub out the two of them ?. Sorry but nothing will convince me that Clough didn't make a major blunder by not withdrawing Flynn the other night.

 

[Woodwardfan]

Ok, Done was blowing, Flynn was blowing plus he appeared to be struggling more than Done and looked to have taken a few hefty whacks well before the end, so who do you sub out the two of them ?. Sorry but nothing will convince me that Clough didn't make a major blunder by not withdrawing Flynn the other night.

It's all about what the manager believes is the best way to win the game at 1-0 up with 10 minutes plus stoppage time to go.

He had already taken off a striker at 0-0 so he was worried about the 4-4-2 system not being enough to stop Posh scoring. He ranted about McNulty not playing well "for an hour" but he wanted to get back to his comfort zone of 4-5-1. Just because McNulty isn't playing well doesn't mean he shouldn't stay on the pitch and he always has a goal in him as we know. It's more about what system should be played a) to win the game and b) to preserve the points once in front. I'd say 4-4-2 in both cases and play Adams for McNults if you have to but you can move Murphy up there and Adams on left midfield if not. Our manager is cautious but I honestly believe the best way to win that match was to play the game in their half not ours. As for Adams, we played him immediately after he signed from non-league, he did very well, looks much sturdier than our average midfielder and yet he can't get any time on the pitch these days - very strange.

In truth Clough did not make the changes "to try to win the game" he was preserving the point at 0-0. The way we played once we went 4-5-1 was defensive, we were in retreat before we scored even, with the isolated Done on his own. Somehow the lad conjured a goal out of nothing. The manager seems to think we are playing against Real Madrid every week not league 1 opposition. Even the half time substitution of Holt instead of Reed was the cautious choice. 4-4-2 would have stood more chance of working with the Reed/ Doyle partnership than the safer Holt/ Doyle one.

I agree about Flynn, that left back had crunched him a few times and he was hurting, though honest as ever and kept going. He was weary of the physical side and knackered. Done was tiring but certainly had 13 minutes or so left in him. Again it was more about defence than attack from the manager.

 

[Woodwardfan]

Words to live by.

"Words to live by" - OK I'll carry on expressing my worries about the manager then. Thanks Miserable.

 

[crucialkneeligaman]

I don't get this hamstring injury to Flynny was unfortunate business. The man clearly needed subbing well before

It's all about what the manager believes is the best way to win the game at 1-0 up with 10 minutes plus stoppage time to go.

He had already taken off a striker at 0-0 so he was worried about the 4-4-2 system not being enough to stop Posh scoring. He ranted about McNulty not playing well "for an hour" but he wanted to get back to his comfort zone of 4-5-1. Just because McNulty isn't playing well doesn't mean he shouldn't stay on the pitch and he always has a goal in him as we know. It's more about what system should be played a) to win the game and b) to preserve the points once in front. I'd say 4-4-2 in both cases and play Adams for McNults if you have to but you can move Murphy up there and Adams on left midfield if not. Our manager is cautious but I honestly believe the best way to win that match was to play the game in their half not ours. As for Adams, we played him immediately after he signed from non-league, he did very well, looks much sturdier than our average midfielder and yet he can't get any time on the pitch these days - very strange.

In truth Clough did not make the changes "to try to win the game" he was preserving the point at 0-0. The way we played once we went 4-5-1 was defensive, we were in retreat before we scored even, with the isolated Done on his own. Somehow the lad conjured a goal out of nothing. The manager seems to think we are playing against Real Madrid every week not league 1 opposition.

I agree about Flynn, that left back had crunched him a few times and he was hurting, though honest as ever and kept going. He was weary of the physical side and knackered. Done was tiring but certainly had 13 minutes or so left in him. Again it was more about defence than attack from the manager.

Would have swapped Flynny for Adams Woody, this kid gives the opposition something to think about but it always seems to be the case of shutting up shop rather than getting at mediocre opposition at home.